sdai Posted September 17, 2006 Share #41 Posted September 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wonder what magic Leica can do in the next one and a half months ... if they haven't done so in the past 4 or 5 years. Who has ever seen the image quality of any specific camera can be significantly improved by firmware tweaks in history so far? The Puts samples are good enough ... in my eyes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 Hi sdai, Take a look here Erwin Puts review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #42 Posted September 17, 2006 Yes, wide open is the true test. .. the Cannon wide anglers wide open are small potatoes, buster! Actually, just to keep us honest, the Canon 35/1.4L is excellent wide open. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #43 Posted September 17, 2006 I suspect the M8 is mostly marketed toward existing rangfinder users who have an investment in M mount lenses. I can see it also attracting digital users who want a smaller package. But I don't see it attracting a lot of folks who have never used a rangefinder in the past. You may be very surprised in that respect. Even the R-d1 drew in a lot of photographers who had never owned a rangefinder before. Things change... Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #44 Posted September 17, 2006 I may be in a minority here, but I thought the comparision test with the 5D was informative. I would say that the M8 did fine considering that the only software available was the beta version. While its true the color moire pattern needed some software help, is this surprising in a camera that does not have a low pass filter? As for noise levels, I would be happy if the M8 is competitive with the best camera on the market. It is true that Irwins test photos leave a lot to be desire. They look to be poorly done with his rush to be the first one to violate the agreement with Leica. Still, even with the poor examples, it looks to me that the M8 is within striking distance of at least equaling the best FF camera on the market. And in a rangefinder body! Yipeeeee!! Rex Hi Rex, I'm afraid that it was primarily mis-informative and not consistent at all with what I've seen from two examples of the M8 (even with early firmware). Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #45 Posted September 17, 2006 Yes!! The LP filter gets rid of it, or at least reduces it. Leica plans to it electronically with programming, which may not be implemented in the firmware yet. Hence, the 'test' was not valid. Canon not only has a strong AA filter, but then uses sharpening to recapture some of the resolution that was lost. I suspect in the end Leica will have fewer artifacts and will be more up-res'able.Tom Hi Tom, Actually, the AA filter in the 5D is fairly weak. That's been true for all the Canon FF cameras. With the added resolution there's less need for AA filtration. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #46 Posted September 17, 2006 i really like his "history of Leica" type articles and his lens reviews, but wow...i'm kind of suprised he would post those images at this point, it just seems so unprofessional. why create a bad vibe about the M8 before the image processing is even finalized? now we are going to read all over the web about how "noisy" the high ISO is as compared to the 5D etc.... ugh. Exactly, this is just going to stir up all kinds of nonsense based on tests that are not valid. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #47 Posted September 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm almost certain that he has. His site was down for a while and then reappeared without the comparative shots. For that to happen on a Saturday evening he must have been leaned on by the guys in Solms. I e-mailed them (Germany and USA) as soon as I saw the page. It's not fair to stack the cards against them like that. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #48 Posted September 17, 2006 I wonder what magic Leica can do in the next one and a half months ... if they haven't done so in the past 4 or 5 years. Who has ever seen the image quality of any specific camera can be significantly improved by firmware tweaks in history so far? The Puts samples are good enough ... in my eyes. Simon, The pictures Erwin posted are not representative at all. They are not a valid base line to start from. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #49 Posted September 17, 2006 So there's clearly a theme to my last few posts here and that is, to the extent that the reader trusts my judgement about these things (and I realize that varies), the Puts examples and conclusions should not be taken seriously. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipNovaMac Posted September 17, 2006 Share #50 Posted September 17, 2006 I'm almost certain that he has. His site was down for a while and then reappeared without the comparative shots. For that to happen on a Saturday evening he must have been leaned on by the guys in Solms. That was my thought. I assume that Solms must think Puts as a saint. For those of us that saw the samples - the question would be why would we ever buy the M8? The likes of DPR and Sean would not post previews without some cloaked warning about image quality concerns,even with beta firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 17, 2006 Share #51 Posted September 17, 2006 The pictures Erwin posted are not representative at all. They are not a valid base line to start from. That wouldn't be a surprise, Sean. The overwhelming majority of Leica owners really only do casual candids ... Erwin is simply one of the most infamous ones. If the darned camera can only produce better results than what I saw today ... great, and that's beyond my expectations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 17, 2006 Share #52 Posted September 17, 2006 The likes of DPR and Sean would not post previews without some cloaked warning about image quality concerns,even with beta firmware. There might not be a NDA or whatsover for Erwin Puts ... it could be his own sort of "damage control" ... based on my experience working in Germany for many years, who the heck in Solms or anywhere in Deutschland, would "work" over a weekend? I believe many folks have seen, toyed, "used" the M8 without signing their life away on any paper ... it's just common sense that you are not to spoil your relationship with the guy or business who handed you the darned camera. What you're expecting from the Internet ... the "fame" being the first one posting a spy photo of M8? geez, do you make money from that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #53 Posted September 17, 2006 That wouldn't be a surprise, Sean. The overwhelming majority of Leica owners really only do casual candids ... Erwin is simply one of the most infamous ones. If the darned camera can only produce better results than what I saw today ... great, and that's beyond my expectations I don't mean the subjects of the pictures (although I know what you're saying) , I mean that the examples he showed are not representative of how the camera performs. In short, some of what he's said about the M8 will be discredited in the next couple months. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 17, 2006 Share #54 Posted September 17, 2006 There might not be a NDA or whatsover for Erwin Puts ... it could be his own sort of "damage control" ... based on my experience working in Germany for many years, who the heck in Solms or anywhere in Deutschland, would "work" over a weekend? Several people at Leica are working this weekend. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 17, 2006 Share #55 Posted September 17, 2006 The main point I got in his reveiw was he was dissapointed the M8 didn't realize the full potiential of Leica lens superiority which no camera has. For the rest he seemed anti-Leica to me. But, still even if he's right, we get a camera in the ballpark with the best in terms of digital image, and with all the traditional M advantages for certain types of shooting. Sounds like Erwin has something going on with Leica, and sounds like the M8 will be a great camera. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipNovaMac Posted September 17, 2006 Share #56 Posted September 17, 2006 There might not be a NDA or whatsover for Erwin Puts ... it could be his own sort of "damage control" ... based on my experience working in Germany for many years, who the heck in Solms or anywhere in Deutschland, would "work" over a weekend? I believe many folks have seen, toyed, "used" the M8 without signing their life away on any paper ... it's just common sense that you are not to spoil your relationship with the guy or business who handed you the darned camera. What you're expecting from the Internet ... the "fame" being the first one posting a spy photo of M8? geez, do you make money from that? You may be right. But given the time and effort on the M8, and the thought behind the rest of the digital line-up; there could be a new idea of the internet driving the market. It could also be the likes of Sean that has certain email addresses that got things done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 17, 2006 Share #57 Posted September 17, 2006 Actually, just to keep us honest, the Canon 35/1.4L is excellent wide open. Cheers, Sean But still as good as the Summilux-R 35mm current version and the Cannon color rendition is still plastickey looking... oh well! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share #58 Posted September 17, 2006 The main point I got in his reveiw was he was dissapointed the M8 didn't realize the full potiential of Leica lens superiority which no camera has. For the rest he seemed anti-Leica to me.Mitchell And as we said before, did he tried it wide-open where the Leica lens superiority is most evident? Did he compare colors? No, just noise with a non-definitive firmware and resolution, just like any beginner who think that a digital camera is all about shooting at 1600 ISO and the number of MPixels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 17, 2006 Share #59 Posted September 17, 2006 The pictures Erwin posted are not representative at all. They are not a valid base line to start from. To post pictures and not say if they were from RAW or Jpeg is a fundamental flaw. If they were from Jpeg the differences could be explained by different levels of in camera sharpening. A guy of Rangefinder.com had a play with one of the M8 images adjusting contrast and sharpening and it looked at least as good as the 5D image. I use a 5D and think it's a great camera - despite what one or two people say here - but I'd want a comparison between it and the M8 to be fair, and I don't think that was the case here. As I said earlier Erwin is very good when it comes to lenses, but I sometimes think that he doesn't do 'digital' at all well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 17, 2006 Share #60 Posted September 17, 2006 There's a nice quote on the intro to Sean's site: "In the din of the Internet's noise, Sean Reid is one of a handful of voices worth listening to." I put Erwin firmly in the "Internet's Noise" category. He's been grumbling about Leica for a while now and I am surprised they even let him get his hands on an M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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