marknorton Posted September 17, 2006 Share #21 Posted September 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually, as Sean points out on his site, the Leica 21/24/28 finder will work well and give a much larger image than the new universal finder for the M8, due to its inherent larger magnifaction factor...for those who want the new Tri-elmar only for the M8, it will be a much better choice, due to image size.... Is that right? Sean is almost always correct, IMHO (and I insert the qualifier "almost" so as not to appear overly sychophantic). The Universal finder has 5 settings and the M8 with the Tri-Elmar occupy the top three, leaving 2 even wider settings which are for film use only. That means you set the T-E to 16mm and the U-F to 21mm and what you see is a frame in the middle of a huge field of view. Makes little sense to me, I'd like to see 2 versions of this beast, one for film with the 16-18-21-24-28 and one for digital with 16-18-21-24 with a somewhat higher magnification. I think it's sensible for the finder to replicate the widest setting of the viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 17, 2006 Posted September 17, 2006 Hi marknorton, Take a look here M8 viewfinder with 21 (28fov). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
grober Posted September 17, 2006 Share #22 Posted September 17, 2006 For what it's worth: I had the plastic CV 28mm finder (not the newer 28/35 combo one) but sold it when I got my M7. I didn't and still don't like needless "clutter" on top of any Leica. Then I fell passionately in love with the 25mm Biogon and, of course, also bought its pricey but equally fabulous Zeiss viewfinder. Thrown in with the deal is the fact that Zeiss incorporates BOTH 25mm and 28mm frames in their auxiliary finder. When I mount my 21mm Elmarit on the M8, I'll whip out the Zeiss finder and train myself to use the inside (28mm) frame when shooting with the Leica 21mm lens. I'm hoping that Zeiss (or someone) offers the service of modifying the Biogon mount so that it engages the M8's 24mm frame vice the 28mm one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 17, 2006 Share #23 Posted September 17, 2006 hmmm....i wonder then if the legacy LTM and VC lenses with M adapter rings will bring up the proper frame lines? Depends on which M adapter ring you buy - they are interchangeable adapter for 35/135 (film) will bring up 24/35 (M8) adapter for 28/90 (film) will bring up 28/90 (M8) adapter for 50/75 (film) will bring up 50/75 (M8) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 17, 2006 Share #24 Posted September 17, 2006 On the subject of using a 21 as a 28 and seeing the whole finder.... Why wouldn't this work? Every M from the M4-P on has shown a 28mm field of view with .72x magnification. If the M8 is .68x, it should be showing MORE subject matter than a .72x, and be even MORE compatable with a 28mm field of view. Unless Leica has shrunk the 'tunnel' of the viewfinder as well as the magnification....? Sean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #25 Posted September 18, 2006 Actually, as Sean points out on his site, the Leica 21/24/28 finder will work well and give a much larger image than the new universal finder for the M8, due to its inherent larger magnifaction factor...for those who want the new Tri-elmar only for the M8, it will be a much better choice, due to image size.... Is that right? I haven't compared the two finders side by side or checked the specs. for magnification yet but the 21/24/28 would be my choice because I would not be using the new TE with a film body (other than testing for a review). The 21/24/28 is also good looking. <G> Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #26 Posted September 18, 2006 . The existing 21/24/28 finder has had bad press in terms of quality - mechanical and optical... Really? Bad press from whom? I thought it was fine when I tried it. It's very convenient to be sure. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #27 Posted September 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm hoping that Zeiss (or someone) offers the service of modifying the Biogon mount so that it engages the M8's 24mm frame vice the 28mm one. Several people will want to see that happen and I bet someone will find a way. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 18, 2006 Share #28 Posted September 18, 2006 On the subject of using a 21 as a 28 and seeing the whole finder.... Why wouldn't this work? Every M from the M4-P on has shown a 28mm field of view with .72x magnification. If the M8 is .68x, it should be showing MORE subject matter than a .72x, and be even MORE compatable with a 28mm field of view. Unless Leica has shrunk the 'tunnel' of the viewfinder as well as the magnification....? Sean? Hi Andy, I understand your point and I don't have a good answer for you. I also haven't tried a 21 on an M8 yet but my gut instinct (recalling the finder from memory) is that the whole finder view will be a bit tight for a 21. To get a more definitive answer, I'll try a 21 and M8 together as soon as I can. Till then it's just a guess. I can say that my colleague Ed Schwartzreich (who writes for Viewfinder) wears glasses and was able to see the frame lines for the 24 in the M8. That's the widest he or I have tried on it yet. Ed or I could ask Tom Abrahamson who probably tried the 21. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 18, 2006 Share #29 Posted September 18, 2006 Really? Bad press from whom? I thought it was fine when I tried it. It's very convenient to be sure. Cheers, Sean I hope it's not my bigotry, but I seem to remember people here (or on the old site) not being happy with the Leica 21/24/28 finder and recommending the Zeiss finders instead. I agree though it seems a good match for the new Tri-Elmar when used on the M8. Ball park, the new finder costs $450 when bought with the lens, $750 when bought separately, the existing one is about $420 (all excluding sales taxes) so it's worth buying the new finder with the lens if you think you're ever going to need it. Leica have a patent on the existing finder which you can see here... United States Patent: 6643462 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 18, 2006 Share #30 Posted September 18, 2006 Several people will want to see that happen and I bet someone will find a way. Cheers, Sean As I've posted elsewhere, the bayonet flange which activates the 24mm frame is shorter than the one which activates the 28mm lens, so it should be quite possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlm Posted September 18, 2006 Share #31 Posted September 18, 2006 I used to love the biogon 21 on my G2, but at almost $4k, the Tri-emlar is a pretty expensive way to get the 21mm fov; any other reasoanable options...I think the Zeiss 15mm is over $3k, if it has even been released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 18, 2006 Share #32 Posted September 18, 2006 John, good point, leaving aside the CV 12mm f5.6 and 15mm f4.5 options, I think the Zeiss will be a viable alternative to the Tri-Elmar: faster, slightly wider, slightly less expensive but also a huge, heavy lens compared to the Tri-Elmar which is only a little bigger than the 28-35-50 Tri-Elmar. It will be interesting to see how each of these lenses behaves on the M8 keeping in mind there will be no lens coding and any vignetting correction will be manual. Sounds like someone with access to CV and Zeiss loaners should be doing a comparative between the Zeiss Distagon and the new Tri-Elmar. Now I wonder who that might be.... Sean! I even have a provisional article title for him: "Super-wide options for the M8" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #33 Posted September 19, 2006 Ayup...that would indeed be a good idea. Actually, by part II, I will have covered most of what really needs to be said about the M8 (from my experience) save for it's performance long-term. So then there are a whole raft of lens articles to do. I used that 21/24/28 finder and liked it very much. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_l Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share #34 Posted September 19, 2006 Sean- Here's a quote from Stephen Gandy at CameraQuest (from the article on finders on his website): The 21-24-28 Leica M Zooooom Finder was introduced in June 2001. It's rather large, round, and has an estimated street price of $500. This is the FIRST ever Zoom finder for the M series. It has not proven that popular with its large size and relatively dim view. Buy the individual Voigtlander finders instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_l Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share #35 Posted September 19, 2006 Any idea whether the Leica viewfinder magnifier would work with the new multifinder? that might make the image size for the M8 more useful.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 19, 2006 Share #36 Posted September 19, 2006 Really? Bad press from whom? I thought it was fine when I tried it. It's very convenient to be sure. I had the multifinder a few years ago (I'm not sure why because I only used it with the 24mm Elmarit - must have been an eBay bargain or something?). I thought the build quality of the thing was absolutely fine but disliked the size and the non-frameline view that it provided (think Contax G cameras and the zooming 'tunnel' view). I sold it in favour of the Leica plastic 24mm finder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 19, 2006 Share #37 Posted September 19, 2006 What we don't know is how it works on the M8. Andy thinks you will need to adjust for the crop factor making the 16 and 18 settings redundant so that if you select 16mm on the lens, you will dial in 21mm on the finder. My hope is that it will work with 16/18/21/24/28 on the M8 as well without correction and redundant settings. The finder alone costs much more than most people pay for a digital camera so it has to do something! According to the Leica website you have to manually adjust for the 1.33x crop. Incidentally, the new finder has to be the ugliest piece of industrial design from Leica in years (functionally it may be excellent) and looks very ill-proportioned when fitted to the camera body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #38 Posted September 19, 2006 I agree it does look like you have to dial in 21 when you select 16mm on the Tri-Elmar mounted on the M8. Sounds like there's some rear guard action in the Leica Design Department to keep film alive, a petulant protest at the demise of Agfa. I thnk this is Leica's equivalent of the Aston Martin requirement in older cars to remove the back seat to service the brakes... If I had been doing it, I would have done it differently and mine will quickly find its way onto my bench for corrective surgery... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted September 19, 2006 Share #39 Posted September 19, 2006 Really? Bad press from whom? I thought it was fine when I tried it. It's very convenient to be sure. Cheers, Sean I find as you select different angles of view the distance at which your eye has to focus changes. Even with a diopter correction lens I can't have all 3 fields of view in focus. Also, as I move my eye laterally the position of the frame moves with respect to the subject, there's significant parallax. In spite of these limitations I use it, as you say it's very convenient For those of you interested here is the patent for the finder United States Patent: 6643462 Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 19, 2006 Share #40 Posted September 19, 2006 Leica have a patent on the existing finder which you can see here... United States Patent: 6643462 Great minds think alike Bob! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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