Leica M8 ... BJP SCOOP ???

[Rolo]

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"Wish AP would not put those photographic insurance invitation forms into the magazine ."

 

Do you mean those that drop on the floor in the newsagents ? Hopefully they'll campaign against these mailers.

[TimF]

Christopher

 

I hate to disagree with your comments about "Amateur Photgrapher" magazine. I am still reeling from their devastating review of the DMR.

 

I do agree with you about the DMR review, and was one of a number who questioned the results on AP's own forum. However that may be, this is the same magazine which gave perhaps the highest lens test scores I can remember seeing to the 50mm Summilux-M Asph and 75mm Summicron-M - 94 and 96% respectively, along with a lament that so few people were likely to experience lenses of such quality for themselves.

[albertwang]

Maybe they reviewed the DMR on a bad, rainy day-- thus bad review too?

[dkCambridgeshire]

I do agree with you about the DMR review, and was one of a number who questioned the results on AP's own forum. However that may be, this is the same magazine which gave perhaps the highest lens test scores I can remember seeing to the 50mm Summilux-M Asph and 75mm Summicron-M - 94 and 96% respectively, along with a lament that so few people were likely to experience lenses of such quality for themselves.

 

But ...weren't those tests were done by Geoffrey Crawley ... one of the world's most respected and knowledgeable photographic experts ... I think he deserves a knighthood for his services to photography over so many years ... he is someone who can be relied upon to give AP some credibility ...

 

Dunk

[TimF]

Yes they were Duncan.

 

Damien Demolder (who did the DMR test) is in my experience of reading his review pieces, pretty fair though. What happened with the DMR is anybody's guess; maybe they just got a flawed sample - which does happen with review items from time to time, especially if they've been doing the rounds. Usually if that occurs its something fairly obvious, so a replacement can be had, but if the problem is buried deep in the software it might not be so obvious.

 

FWIW, the initial thread about the AP review is at Amateur Photographer & What Digital Camera: AP's DMR review, and Damien Demolder's response is at Amateur Photographer & What Digital Camera: Damien's response

 

The first thread of the two unfortunately got overtaken by a row about trolling, dual identities and so on. There are also references to a multi-forum dispute, which spread over AP's site, photo.net (linked to in the thread) and the old Leica Customer Forum!

[marknorton]

The BJP pictures tell us little about the quality of the M8. By the time the images have been the reprographic process, they could have been taken on anything. I also don't know who Jonathan Eastland is but he seems to be a typical journo is likes to bang on about some particular pet hate or make snide remarks. Sarcasm, it seems, is his stock in trade. He might not think the M8 is pretty. I do.

 

So, I'll ignore all this garbage and wait for the opinion which matters to me most - mine. I can form my own buying decisions without the help of a journo with an axe to grind.

[palaeoboy]

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ah, sorry I'm getting mixed up with the metal shutter aspect.

 

Well if they wanted to, Leica should probably ditch the metal shutter and go for a silent shutter that doesn't make a sound. And why did a metal shutter get used in the design. I suspect that it has to do with high speed TTL flash metering. Otherwise, the metal shutter isn't useful?

 

The metal shutter was used from the R8/9 for several reasons, faster flash synch, higher top shutter speed, less risk of burning and the saving of using a shutter already on their production line to help reduce costs.

 

But your premise wrong. The shutter itself is just as quiet as an M7, its the mechanism to cock the shutter again thats the noisy part. So you cannot blame a metal shutter for the noise. The solution would be to add a manual wind lever but that idea copped alot of flack with the Epson RD-1.

[albertwang]

Doesn't matter. The M8 looks good and I'm happy enough. AP review not going to change a whit of my impression.

[humanized_form]

Jonathan Eastland wrote the "Leica M7 Handbook"and the "Leica R/Leica M Compendium" books .

[TimF]

The BJP pictures tell us little about the quality of the M8. By the time the images have been the reprographic process, they could have been taken on anything. I also don't know who Jonathan Eastland is...

 

Looking at the BJP pictures, it seems pretty evident that the reds in the prototype are slightly pinkish; its the same in all five shots - the guy's left arm in the p12 shot (plus the magazine held by the girl and the logos on the hoodie worn by the guy in the background), the stripe down the sleeve of the shirt worn by the guy in the phone box on p13, the shirt worn by the foreground guy on p15 etc. This just requires software tweaking to get right.

 

I do agree though that pictures in any magazine, bar one printed on art quality paper, tells little about true quality. Only a proper print will do that.

 

As for Jonathan Eastland, perhaps a little enlightenment is in order? He is a long-standing Leica user (especially the M system, but he also has a small R outfit), and also uses Nikon and Hasselblad gear. His work mainly centres around maritime subjects (yachts etc) but he does a fair amount of work for the British Armed Forces, as well as SP (the last principally for his own pleasure I believe).

 

He has published "compendiums" on Leica M and R systems (Hove) and individual books on the R8, M6 TTL and M7, and a booklet on the MP (the R8 is Hove, the others via his own Ajax Press). He has also produced several books on maritime photography, plus articles for Freelance Photographer (now f/2), BJP etc etc.

 

I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Jonathan during a Leica Day at Classic Camera in London - a year previously he had done a similar day there which I couldn't get to, so left a couple of books to be signed, one of which was his "A Camera At Sea". To my great surprise, when he asked my name for signing a copy of his M7 Handbook (which had just been published), he remembered, with no prompting, having signed this other title 12 months before. A very nice chap, with no airs & graces.

[nemeng]

... I also don't know who Jonathan Eastland is ...

 

Maybe Aristophanes can help:

 

Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown;

ignorance can be educated, drunkeness sobered --

but stupidity lasts forever.

 

I've exchanged a few emails with Jonathan over the years. As others have pointed out, he's a working photojournalist and runs a stock photo agency. Seems to know his stuff. Heck, he has even written a few books about M and R Leicas.

 

Maybe a short visit to Google next time will move oneself from the "forever" to the "educated" group?...

 

:?)

[sean_reid]

Does anyone know if this issue is out in the states yet? I'd like to see it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[dkCambridgeshire]

Jonathan Eastland used to market his own special AJAX brand Leica M camera cases ... not sure if he still does ... but they were/are good quality soft cases ...and designed for fast camera operation ... I almost bought one but could not quite afford to at the time ... some years ago now. And I recall in Professional Photographer magazine approx. 12 years ago he published a list of checks which should be made when purchasing a used Leica M or Screw camera ... I still have the article somewhere ... very useful .. but the one check he did not mention was loose strap lugs ... old Leicas often suffer from this.

 

Dunk

[marknorton]

If Jonathan is such a good apple then, I would have expected the side-bar in the BJP article to be more objective, less cynical and less sarcastic.

 

He bangs on about how bad the removeable base is, how the film camera should have a hinged back, how the camera should have doors for battery and memory, how the camera is inelegant, how it's noisy, how the screen is unprotected and so it goes on. He then finishes his piece with a throwaway remark about noise and colour problems without justifying his remark. If he is bound by NDA from doing so, he shouldn't make the comment in the first place.

 

I certainly don't subscribe to the school of thought that Leica can do no wrong but I thought his piece was generally unhelpful.

 

Jonathan, if you don't like the camera, don't buy it (or should I say, return the long term loaner). I'll be one nearer the head of the queue which suits me fine.

[albertwang]

Go M8, go M8.

[TimF]

If Jonathan is such a good apple then, I would have expected the side-bar in the BJP article to be more objective, less cynical and less sarcastic.

 

The side panel opens as follows: "Expectations for what one thinks and hopes a camera manufacturer may bring to market are hardly ever met in my experience. But just occasionally, by accident or design, a tool arrives and the world queues to own it."

 

"The new Leica digital rangefinder M8 will come to typify this perception. Photojournalists all over the world are going to get on well with it and Leica's capacity to meet demand will be sorely tested."

 

Perhaps, Mark, you can explain the lack of objectivity, the cynicism and sarcasm in the above quote for me?

 

He bangs on about how bad the removeable base is, how the film camera should have a hinged back, how the camera should have doors for battery and memory, how the camera is inelegant, how it's noisy, how the screen is unprotected and so it goes on.

 

1. Quote for me please where JE says the removable base is "bad".

2. Quote for me please where he says the film cameras "should have a hinged back"

 

What he does say is, "Changing film on a M is an acquired skill. Removing the baseplate is a quirky high risk action which only the lucky or the accomplished never seem to fall foul of in a fast moving situation; loads of users have been screaming at Leica for decades to change the system to a conventional open back and I fail to understand why the M8 was not simply fitted with a pair of secure and dust proofed doors. Perhaps it felt miffed by Epson's innovation and just had to maintain the only Leica thing it could without being dubbed copy-cats"

 

The last sentence could be construed as sarcastic, but maybe we should remember that when the R-D1 came out, Leica's old regime were still saying a digital M was not feasible.

 

He then finishes his piece with a throwaway remark about noise and colour problems without justifying his remark. If he is bound by NDA from doing so, he shouldn't make the comment in the first place.

 

During this past week Mark, I have noticed you posting upbeat statements such as confirming that you have ordered not one but two M8s alongside downbeat ones saying the proof of the pudding will be in the image quality and if Leica don't get this right the M8 will be a failure. Or is there a troll posting the latter under your name? If not, which of the two count as "throwaway remarks". As an aside, Ian Watts on this forum has described the colour in the BJP pictures as muddy.

 

For the record, once again, Eastland's comments read, "My gripes aside, there is no denying the quality of the beast or that, once Leica has sorted the colour palette and noise problems evident from files taken with prototypes, it will not become the future standard tool for reportage. Expensive? Yes. Pretty? No, but then you don't buy a Maybach for its looks."

 

Now, my copy of the new AP arrived a short time ago, so I'm off to read their preview look at the M8.

[wattsy]

Mark, I'm surprised at the fuss you are making of Jonathan Eastland's comments. The M8 is an important development for Leica, and for many of us, as M system users, it's an important new product. However, this doesn't mean that it should be beyond criticism. I imagine that once we get the M8 in our hands there will be a number of things that we wish Leica had done differently (and I suspect that some of us will have a more prosaic view about the image quality). This forum sometimes feels like a religious community with the arrival of the M8 treated like some kind of Second Coming.

[albertwang]

But Eastland's comments aren't constructive. He never mentions how the camera needs to be improved.

 

Geewhiz, really, get rid of these bastard camera reviewers.

 

Give the M8 to Steve McCurry or David Alan Harvey or some other Magnum guy. Have them review it and give us feedbaack!

[TimF]

once Leica has sorted the colour palette and noise problems evident from files taken with prototypes

 

How about this extract. From JE's blog, this is from looking at "cartloads of images shot in real life indoor and outdoor situations" (see section titled Leica's new baby (M8) - Part 2). Under the NDA terms remember he is unable to say anything on image quality beyond the most blah of statements. The same would be true for messrs McCurry or Harvey (or indeed for any other American photographer you care to mention, God forbid a european should comment, eh!)

 

References to existing issues seen on prototype cameras which need to be sorted before the camera goes on sale are perfectly acceptable IMHO, are presumably in Leica's too, otherwise he would have been slapped down like Erwin was.

 

A final side point. In the new issue of AP, besides the brief preview look at the M8 (which merly discusses certain specifications of the camera - a full review is unlikely before mid-December), there is a review of the Epson R-D1s. I don't intendd to comment on the review here, but in passing, the writer ((Damien Demolder) who was taken to task by some for complaining about the level of vignetting with the CV 15mm lens when he reviewed the original R-D1 notes that he has used the same 15mm lens on "another digital rangefinder", and it vignettes very much less than it does on the Epson (the R-D1s is much improved over the original in that respect, but inferior to the "other" camera).

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[marknorton]

Mark, I'm surprised at the fuss you are making of Jonathan Eastland's comments. The M8 is an important development for Leica, and for many of us, as M system users, it's an important new product. However, this doesn't mean that it should be beyond criticism. I imagine that once we get the M8 in our hands there will be a number of things that we wish Leica had done differently (and I suspect that some of us will have a more prosaic view about the image quality). This forum sometimes feels like a religious community with the arrival of the M8 treated like some kind of Second Coming.

 

Ian, I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it, if I were you. I have already said I do not think Leica are beyond criticism but I would expect "Journo Johnny" to comply with the spirit and letter of the NDA which I expect he has subscribed to and he should therefore not be commenting on the quality of the images he has seen either in the BJP or his blog.

 

If the M8 turns out to be a dog after the embargo is lifted, we will definitely have cause for concern, but until then I'm reserving judgment.