what am i doing wrong here?

[marius]

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hi - i have just started developing (then scanning) my own film, and so far i've not had much luck. these two are from the same roll of tri-x (@400), developed in ilfotec dd-x for 8 minutes.

 

they just seem way too grainy for me — am i expecting too much out of the tri-x? the first one seems less grainy in the lower left corner.

 

any tips? thanks, marius.

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[rob_x2004]

You have watermarks and scratches too so theres a bit of a road ahead. You probably need to disclose your dd-x concentration, water temperature and agitation routines as well as your scanning technique and post processsing, then people will be able to start chipping away at your problems for you.

 

ps...Just in aside, dd-x 1+4 is eight minutes at 20Centigrade.

[wbesz]

The second image is more grainy than the first, is this on the same film roll?

If it is, the second image looks under-exposed.

 

Scanning Tri-x always produces exaggerated grain for me, but yours is more so.

What kind of scanner do you use?

 

The new films such as Ilford's Delta 400 produce much less grain, and go well with DDX developer.

[CameronDavidson]

Two Thoughts:

 

It looks like you are getting "shutter bounce" on the right hand side of your frame. Please have your shutter checked to see if that is happening.

 

Tri-X is fairly smooth most of the time. It looks to me like your agitation is to heavy and maybe you are processing on the warm side or for too long.

 

The "shutter bounce" look could also be from developer circulating across the reel.

 

In a couple of weeks, a master B&W printer I know is starting a blog to help people. The owner is an incredible technician and will give helpful hints for these types of problems. As soon as it is up, I will pass the information along.

 

In the meantime, I would search out the Kodak forums and tech journals.

 

I think the key here is - start fresh, make sure your temps are on the money, go slow with the agitation. When you scan the film, do not apply any sharpening to the scans, get good even histograms with no clipping. Only apply sharpening after you size the image.

 

What scanner/software combo did you use? Did you use digital ice on a Minolta or Nikon scanner?'

[andym911]

Here is an example of TriX and DDX (1:4 8mins 20deg).

 

Scanned on my lowly Epson flatbed (2400dpi) with no sharpening.

In Lightroom some contrast and sharpening.

I think the result is ok and the grain is not so pronounced.

I acknowledge that it is completely different lighting situation than yours but just want to post an example of same film/dev combination.

 

 

regards

 

andy

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[andym911]

p.s

I always overexpose TriX by about a stop.

 

andy

[marius]

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The second image is more grainy than the first, is this on the same film roll?

If it is, the second image looks under-exposed.

 

Scanning Tri-x always produces exaggerated grain for me, but yours is more so.

What kind of scanner do you use?

 

The new films such as Ilford's Delta 400 produce much less grain, and go well with DDX developer.

 

yep, they're from the same roll of film.

 

i use a nikon coolscan v ed, these are scanned with nikon scan, default settings for a monochrome negative.

 

marius.

[marius]

You have watermarks and scratches too so theres a bit of a road ahead. You probably need to disclose your dd-x concentration, water temperature and agitation routines as well as your scanning technique and post processsing, then people will be able to start chipping away at your problems for you.

 

ps...Just in aside, dd-x 1+4 is eight minutes at 20Centigrade.

 

yep, i see the watermarks/scratches also —*i know there's lots of room for improvement, but the grainyness is really bothering me :-(

 

i had dd-x at 1+4, water temperature at 20 C (+/- .5 C). here's my log:

 

1. pre-soak for 1m

2. dd-x 1+4 for 8m. 4 inversions immediately, then on the top of each minute.

3. stop bath: 3x fill with water and agitate for 10 seconds each

4. fix: lauder chemicals "formula 763" for 6 minutes, same agitation routine as developing

5. wash: fill & invert 5x; refill & invert 10x; refill and invert 20x; then refill and invert 20x for the next 10 minutes

6. wetting agent: a tiny amount of kodak photo-flo, then filling slowly with water to submerge film. let it stay for 30s, then empty.

7. dry: hang to dry in bathroom for ~3 hrs

 

marius.

[marius]

Two Thoughts:

 

It looks like you are getting "shutter bounce" on the right hand side of your frame. Please have your shutter checked to see if that is happening.

 

Tri-X is fairly smooth most of the time. It looks to me like your agitation is to heavy and maybe you are processing on the warm side or for too long.

 

The "shutter bounce" look could also be from developer circulating across the reel.

 

In a couple of weeks, a master B&W printer I know is starting a blog to help people. The owner is an incredible technician and will give helpful hints for these types of problems. As soon as it is up, I will pass the information along.

 

In the meantime, I would search out the Kodak forums and tech journals.

 

I think the key here is - start fresh, make sure your temps are on the money, go slow with the agitation. When you scan the film, do not apply any sharpening to the scans, get good even histograms with no clipping. Only apply sharpening after you size the image.

 

What scanner/software combo did you use? Did you use digital ice on a Minolta or Nikon scanner?'

 

the digital ICE was turned off

[rob_x2004]

3. stop bath: 3x fill with water and agitate for 10 seconds each

 

Your routine seems pretty Ilford.

 

But you might try going back to three 90degree tilts rather than full inversions on the minute and see if that helps. Your agitation as it is, is pretty robust, and you do have agressive grain.

 

I dont like your stop bath. Unless there is something funny about Trix, purchase some stop, theres no need to be anal, its there to stop development and save your fixer. Get it in, jiggle and invert for ten or fifteen seconds and get it out and your fixer in. Then you can relax a bit.

 

I cant remember my high school chem, but I think the industrial chemists will have a bit of a chuckle at the rinse. Bottle washing formulas were for industry that could not afford to use an extra drop of solvent over ten or twenty million units. It seems to have been adopted in the darkroom, or the greenies. Just rinse the negs for ten or twenty minutes.

 

Use a bit more water flow and let it have a reasonable rest, a minute or so, and remove your negatives from the spool at the hanger and then leave them alone. One of the things with water flow is that you are trying to get the neg to dry top to bottom, and to carry the dust motes off the bottom frame. Dont strip your fingers down the neg, or use a squeegee. Leave it alone. Three hour dry time your neg will probably still be soft.

 

Watch this space for that promised link from the dark room guru. I intend to.

 

 

ps...Does Trix require pre soak...anyone?

[LeonardT]

ps...Does Trix require pre soak...anyone?

 

Tri-X doesn't need a presoak. I only presoak the Adox or Efke films.

 

Why so much work in the water wash? Ten minutes in running water should work just fine.

 

I don't let my film just sit in the Pho-flo solution. I hold the film on either end and rock the film up and down, back and forth for about 20 seconds. I then hold the film taught at about a 30 degree angle and let the excess solution run off. I then hang it to dry. Do not touch the negative portion of the film after it comes out of the Pho-flo and your negatives when dry will look like a narrow sheet of polished glass.

 

I have never used this developer but even with X-tol, Tri-X is grainy. Try the new TMax400 when it's available if you want low grain in a 400 film. I should have some tomorrow.

 

Good luck, and keep experimenting.

 

Len

[marius]

thanks guys for all the helpful replies. this warrants more experimenting indeed!

[wbesz]

yep, they're from the same roll of film.

i use a nikon coolscan v ed, these are scanned with nikon scan, default settings for a monochrome negative.

marius.

 

You have a good scanner, so that's not neccesary the problem.

But I found my Nikon scanner (Super Coolscan 4000 ED) did bring out more grain than I expected too,

so I am guessing that the dots-per-inch (mine 4000) coincides badly with the silver clumps spead in tri-x, which produces the effect of high grain.

Previously I had a 2800 dots-per-inch scanner, and had less grain, but a loss of detail and grey scale gradation (gave this away when I bought the Nikon).

During the last 2-3 I have been using the Elite 5400 II. This one has less grain.

 

Make sure you are using the best scanner setting, ..highest bit scan resolution.

As mentioned earlier by someone, setting a lower film ISO lower will help too.

 

William

[Guest Bernd Banken]

some background information here:

 

Official Scanhancer Site