Those less fortunate

[Guest evita]

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BOTH said yes, even though the guy on the bench lifted up and instantly fell back asleep.

 

...and asked if I could take his picture. He just passed out in the 107 full sun on the bench.

 

Steve, that is not what i would call being conscious of what is happening, therefore I would not have acted like you, but that's just me, noone has to agree, as already written above. you have the right to talk to them and all of what you have written above, documenting their situation could be a very good project, but i remain of the idea, as done above it is not the right way.

 

vic vic - yes we have governments and we keep them, but it's US chosing them, based on what they want to do. but the problem is deeper and starts with us, our education, our wanting everything for the lowest price we can get, not only economically, but also emotionally, the easiest road is taken by so many of us, but it doesn't mean it's the right one. how many of us have parents or grandparents living at home, for example? it's not a problem we can solve here and fast, here i give my comments to the pictures, case by case, my personal boundaries are just set different in THIS case, that's all.

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[uulrich]

@ Evita - Well, Steve made those pictures so it would not make sense to ask you what you had in mind that day. :-) I asked you what your impression of talking and listening to them actually was.

 

Would it make sense just to notice/photograph happy and great moments exclusivly? Turning our back to the uncomforting happenings walk away...?

 

@ all - I find it very good taking those kind of pictures and it was good to upload them in order to point out pros and cons of our society. Still, in my opinion #1 is a very good example and as I already mentioned before it tells a story.

 

I find it useful to pay attention to those individuals. Even if these kind of images are not always comforting we are perhaps even more obliged to work the subject. Here it samples what purpose of a picture can be.

 

I am very pround to be member of a forum where people care about those who are less fortunate. Thanks, Steve.

[Guest evita]

Would it make sense just to notice/photograph happy and great moments exclusivly? Turning our back to the uncomforting happenings walk away...?

 

Uwe, please read what i wrote. i do not approve pictures taken of people passed out, not aware of what is happening, even if there was a yes to get the pictures taken, in the condition the second man is in he is not aware of what happens, that's all. never said that we should notice/photograph only one specific moment, everything can be photographed, every situation, every moment, IF there is respect. and if this man doesn't have any for himself (supposing so), it does not allow ME not to have any. get my point? i am NOT generalizing, i am talking about some of the pictures Steve posted here. point.

[vic vic]

evita...

 

one thing is clear here (at least tome, and im very sure to all here, uwe, u and stetve)... we r in dilema here. constatnt dilema actually. yes - respect vs dipicting the condition in most provoking way. cause photogrphing from the "far" - well, it is not provoking enough for the viewer, any viewer sees is almost every day. so nothing to look at in those kind of more gentele photos. about provoking - yes - at least it can do what the documentary should do - give u oportunity to get closer - to think about it more serioulsy than passing by.

so here is another point of the dilema - including in the particular case of steve (without generalizations).... what steve should have done:: ask the man if he dont mind??? tell him that he needs a photograph for leica forum or for his project about homelesses??? and what then???? what that man would answer, and how valuable would be his answer... u yourself say that he is not in condition of realizing the photograph to come, even if he said to steve "ok".

dilema - deffenetly, this is why we talk here - not becasue i (personally speacking for myself) desagree with u, but becasue in the dilema presented here (which is going along with me in half of my docu works), i came out with some tendantion towards "making" those kind of photos - "provoking" even if it is on the expenses of "respect".

 

now i will tell u even more about how this dilema goes on and on....

a great and famous israely photographer alex liback (whos experties is in social documentation and alike) was made a photograph of a woman who hardly hadles the economic situation we ahve been here a few yerars past (when benjamin natanyahoo was cutting off everything to resque israely econmoics, a very successful but painful policy). the woman of course agreed (and got some better walfare conditions) and let alex liback to do in her home as he wished for his documentary. the photograph was in one of the boggest israely daily newspaper rite at the bigining of the paper. her son (of the woman) really get crazy with the shame about it. it was not on the walls of gallery or some fancy magazine, it was in the "big daily".

but one thing is clear - the awareness to this situation thanks to those and other photos and reportages for the tv news etc, made people more aware of the situation (cause not most peopel in mid and upper socio-economic classes just felt a little tight economocally, not really suffered). so look at it as "price we have to pay in the documentary photography. "provoking" has effect, cause with the public opinion pressure the government just started to be more gentele and more aware of their steps. alex liback imeslf told that he was not in total comfort with the situation of that particular photograph, but he and others played a big part in making the "aganda issue" to be more clear to the public.

 

about our priorities as society - i defenetly agree with what u said... but u tell me - is there any other society that is so open morally and consciusnessly as our western culture???? of course we have to make alot of thinking about the ways we go and get deeper inside, no odubt, we have serious problems, but still.. cherchills words come to my mind :-)) (not only about governmental mothods but about society and its values as well).

[uulrich]

Yes Victor; This almost reflects my experience as well. In addition to that, I also got the impression that some - not all - do not userstand how 'the others' can live their lifes. So while we think these are unfortunate they think we are the ones who are unfortunate.

 

From the few to whom I talked I would say in 2/3 have good education and 1/3 had an degree. I don't have the exact figures and files anymore but if I am not very much mistaken most of those with a degree were school teacher. I don't know why but these were my findings; I can't explain why.

 

Talking to them is IMO very difficult to follow. I suspect it is due to alcohol abuse. They somehow switch the subject every minute once or twice. This makes it a challenge and requires a lot of patience IMO.

 

 

PS:- Phew.... It's on fast pace here. I was referring to the previous postings and the statements made yesterday by Steve, Victor, Phil, Pete, James, Stuart.

[Guest evita]

.... what steve should have done:: ask the man if he dont mind??? tell him that he needs a photograph for leica forum or for his project about homelesses??? and what then???? what that man would answer, and how valuable would be his answer... u yourself say that he is not in condition of realizing the photograph to come, even if he said to steve "ok"...

 

what then? not take the pictures.. spend time with him, or someone else, THEN evtl. take them?

 

dilemma, yes, definitely, every time, case by case. but it can be done. it just needs more time, more involvement, as Uwe says more patience, a lot more of all.

 

"is there any other society that is so open morally and consciusnessly as our western culture????"

 

that would require a book or two or three, difficult and controverse topic

[vic vic]

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ha ha evita - a book or tow or three... i think three book shelves will not be enough :-))))

but still - the fact that we can write books like this just prooves that we have problems but still ahead of any culture in history... :-)

 

uwe - ya deffenetly... very difficult to folow beacause of what u say. i would summerize it as folows... lost of "descursive thinking" (the continous way) and lost of "normotive intuitions".... this is what i have observed as well. normotive i mean in brodest sense, and even here it is lost.