10760 - still worth it?

[Kiwimac]

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Here in NZ Monochrom bodies aren’t abundant. We have a small population of which a small subset use Leica and an even smaller subset of that subset would buy a Monochrom body. 
 

The M11 Mono is of course available at NZ$18990. 
 

I’ve always fancied trying one but they’re never cheap. Ideally an M10M but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one for sale used here. 
 

There is a clean copy of the original 10760 available locally. 
 

I already have an M11-P so could just convert images from that and the newer sensor and higher resolution of 60MP vs 18MP might well make the converted M11-P images better quality than the 10760 images, I don’t know. 

Then there are the issues of things like battery availability and so on for the older bodies. 
 

I’m sure someone here will have helpful insight!

[Kwesi]

I had an M9P and although I enjoyed it back then I wouldn’t buy it again. I know a lot of people really like the ccd monochrome sensor but the m9 body is quite old and compared to the m11 which I also own, it’s antiquated. I would suggest a typ 246 as the next affordable entry into MM sensor. Great camera, had one. Loved it. For the past year I’ve been using my m11 in b/w jpg and dng this way my previews stay in b/w. And I have the option of editing my b/w files using color channels. 

[Bikie John]

One thing to beware of if you are tempted: the original Monochrom had the M9 sensor, which was subject to problems that are often referred to as "corrosion" (actually I think it is the sensor cover glass coming unstuck, but no matter what the cause the problem is real). Leica ran a replacement programme some time ago which as far as I know fixed the problem. There are plenty of threads about this lurking around. So if you decide to look seriously at the one on offer, you really need to make sure that the sensor has been replaced with the newer version.

In the early days of the Monochrom there were significant performance benefits which arose from not having a Bayer matrix filter in front of the sensor. These included better low-light performance (because the filter would soak up around half the light) and better detail (because no de-mosaic process is needed). With modern sensors like your M11-P I think the performance advantages are now negligible thanks to the vastly improved high ISO performance and huge resolution. But, for some of us, there is something special about shooting with a camera that only "sees" in B&W. This has been debated ad tedium on here so there isn't much point in repeating the arguments. The original Mono will give you that benefit and is perfectly capable of producing wonderful results.

I would be tempted to scratch the itch and go for it just to get the experience of using a Mono camera. You shouldn't lose too much if you decide it's not for you and sell it (as long as you can find a buyer in the small NZ Leica pool, of course!).

John

[Stuart Richardson]

10 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I already have an M11-P so could just convert images from that and the newer sensor and higher resolution of 60MP vs 18MP might well make the converted M11-P images better quality than the 10760 images, I don’t know.

If we are just speaking practically, and not emotionally, then yes, the M11-P converted to black and white will be of significantly higher quality. Monochrome sensors are not magic, they are just a bit sharper and lower noise than the same sensor with color. One helpful way to think about pixels is as samples. Each pixel is a single sample of the light. In the original mono you have 18 million samples of the light. In the M11P you have 60 million samples of the light. The reason that monochrome senors are better than color ones with respect to noise and artifacts is that each pixel is read directly, and there is no color filter over the sensor. That gives you a quality boost, but it is usually something around 15-20%. I work as a printer, and I had a client who was using the M9 mono, and it looked pretty good up to around 100x67cm. That was a bit higher than my M9, but it was not nearly as good as the 37mp S2 converted to B&W that I was also using, which shared a CCD from the same company and generation. When it comes to noise, the old CCD sensor, even in mono is not going to keep up with an M11P sampled down to 18mp. 

These days I have a M10M and a Leica SL2, and it is very hard to tell the black and white files apart. The M10M does have a significant noise advantage, but the sharpness and lack of artifacts is pretty close. If you are used to the M!1P, I think you will find using the M9M to be a bit like stepping back in time. I truly loved my M9 (color version), and I still miss the out of camera results, but the body itself was vastly improved in the M10, let alone M11P. Unless you are looking for the exact look that that specific M9M provides, I don't really think it is worth buying if you already have an M11P and are more interested in simple quality and results.

P.S. I was born in Auckland, so you can trust me, lol.

Edited June 3 by Stuart Richardson

[pippy]

Not much to add but, as Bikie John says, the most important thing to check where the M Monochrom is concerned is that it has the second generation sensor fitted. I suspect that the vast majority were updated by Leica but it is essential that any prospective purchase has benefitted from the change.

It is easy to verify which sensor any particular camera has by performing the 'M9 Button Dance' which brings up an information list on the rear screen. Here's how;

Delete; up (2x); down (4x); left (3x); right (3x); Info

By way of illustration here's the next process shown on my own M Monochrom.

From the menu go down to 'Hardware IDs';

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

...and press 'Set'. Doing so will bring up this screen;

The sensor version is displayed on the top line. As far as I am aware the second generation sensor for the M Monochrom has the CCD identification number '53' as shown here (or, possibly, a higher number).

As far as battery-availability goes I doubt that this will be a problem. From those statistics which have been published it would seem that there were more than a quarter of a million M9 cameras (all versions) manufactured and as well as OEM batteries still being readily available there are also 3rd party brands making M9-compatible cells.

Philip.

Edited June 3 by pippy

[Kiwimac]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If we are just speaking practically, and not emotionally, then yes, the M11-P converted to black and white will be of significantly higher quality. Monochrome sensors are not magic, they are just a bit sharper and lower noise than the same sensor with color. One helpful way to think about pixels is as samples. Each pixel is a single sample of the light. In the original mono you have 18 million samples of the light. In the M11P you have 60 million samples of the light. The reason that monochrome senors are better than color ones with respect to noise and artifacts is that each pixel is read directly, and there is no color filter over the sensor. That gives you a quality boost, but it is usually something around 15-20%. I work as a printer, and I had a client who was using the M9 mono, and it looked pretty good up to around 100x67cm. That was a bit higher than my M9, but it was not nearly as good as the 37mp S2 converted to B&W that I was also using, which shared a CCD from the same company and generation. When it comes to noise, the old CCD sensor, even in mono is not going to keep up with an M11P sampled down to 18mp. 

These days I have a M10M and a Leica SL2, and it is very hard to tell the black and white files apart. The M10M does have a significant noise advantage, but the sharpness and lack of artifacts is pretty close. If you are used to the M!1P, I think you will find using the M9M to be a bit like stepping back in time. I truly loved my M9 (color version), and I still miss the out of camera results, but the body itself was vastly improved in the M10, let alone M11P. Unless you are looking for the exact look that that specific M9M provides, I don't really think it is worth buying if you already have an M11P and are more interested in simple quality and results.

P.S. I was born in Auckland, so you can trust me, lol.

Trust a Jafa?! 🤣

 

 Thanks for that. I was looking at some photos shot on the colour version of the camera and they were very similar to looking at slide film in the olden days. Really saturated and bright colours. It’sa shame the modern sensors don’t seem to quite capture that look. 

[costa43]

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I have a soft spot for the M9M. The files put a smile on my face more than other digital Leica bodies. There is no objective measurement for this sort of thing, if you feel the same when you look at them and want a restricted shooting experience then you will likely not lose any/very little money on it should you decide it is not for you. On what is measurable, it's madness to buy one but I'm sure you are aware of this already and many of us are more than a little mad on here..

Edited June 3 by costa43

[ramarren]

I had an M9. Took lovely photos, always raw ... disliked the JPEG colors it made. I replaced it when the sensor got its "disease" with an M-P 240, which was a far better camera in every respect.

Then the M typ 246 Monochrom was announced and I put a pre-order in for it. Half a year later, no one had been able to deliver a camera for me, so I switched the order to buy a then-new SL typ 601. Lovely camera, if a touch heavy. Didn't quite hit the jones for a monochrome M but I made lots of satisfying photos with it.

Then the M-D typ 262 was announced, and I retired, and I sold the SL and bought the M-D 262. And ended up selling the M-P 240 too, then thought "hmm, a TTL camera would be handy and I just sold out of all of them" and bought the CL. That did the job for a couple of years ... and I jones again for a FF camera with monochrome sensor so I tried a Pixii. 

Pixii was okay but had some problems. But I loved the monochrome DNG files. I sent the Pixii back for a refund, and bought the last M10 Monochrom my dealer friend ever got from Leica USA. I liked it so much, I bought a Leica refurbished M10-R to match its resolution and get a color sensor too, selling the CL along the way. 

That's where I am today. And, for my photography, I've seen very little reason to look at an M11 (although the M11 D tickled my curiosity). The M10-R/-M pair just works. Of course, I have other cameras too ... a Hasselblad V system including 907x/CFVII 50c, film Leicas, Light L16, Kodak Retinas, etc etc ... because I'm addicted to interesting cameras. But the M10-R/-M are the baseline of my photography today. 

At this point in time, I would not go back to an M9 generation camera. There's just no reconciling how much nicer to use the M10 generation is, to me. Someday I might become interested in an M11 or later generation but it's hard to imagine why other than just feeding my usual camera equipment addiction.  

I try to think more about the photographs than the cameras.

Good luck.

G

[center][url=https://flic.kr/p/2r8LKyY][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54565558708_38b8fd6f35_b.jpg[/img][/url]
[i][b]Sidewalk Scrawl - Santa Clara 2025[/b]
Leica M10 Monochrom, Summilux 35mm f/1.4 typ 2
ISO 500, f/11, 1/60[/i][/center]

[ramarren]

I forgot ... L-camera-forum server uses a different format to embed photos. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Sidewalk Scrawl - Santa Clara 2025
Leica M10 Monochrom, Summilux 35mm f/1.4 typ 2
ISO 500, f/11, 1/60

enjoy, G

[pgh]

In a similar boat to others here, I have (happily) arrived at the M10 Mono / M10 / SL2 combination. I wouldn’t so much mind an M10R, but I actually do find the 24mp of the color M’s to be around a sweet spot of hand holdable resolution for the sorts of no tripod, sometimes a little bit dynamic situations I often find myself in. The M10M, with it’s advantage in low light ability, is something I have no sweat bumping up the ISO on to maintain sharpness, whereas I’d be less enthusiastic about doing that with the M10R and especially the M11 series.

None of that has to do with the M9 Mono - but I don’t have much to add other use the above to illustrate that I do not think newer is always better for me. The 60 mp sensor is objectively better, and yet holds very little real world gain for me. The M9 Mono sensor is definitively worse than the M10M or even M10R converted to Mono, but where that degradation shows may not be of concern to your actual work uses. I don’t personally have the sort of love for the CCD files that some who love the M9’s do. I never loved the M9 color and the M9Mono, while unique - was not uniquely appealing to me. It is a little different from what I’ve seen in the files, but never used it. If you love why it’s different maybe it’s worth the clunkier user experience. For me, no.

I had an original M8. Sold it for multiple reasons after a few years - the main being that overall just wasn’t great for actually working. It was good for travel and personal stuff but it could just not hack a job. Tried an M9. Did not buy it, do not regret that - same overall issue at the time. Closer but not close enough for me. 

Didn’t come back to Leica digital til the m10, and have been happy with that since its release.

That said, if I loved the files I might pick one up. Everything dies at some point, but I wouldn’t let the fear of the ultimate demise of the device stop me from using it as much as I could in the meantime. I wouldn’t underestimate the ability of this stuff to keep going. There are plenty of functional 30 year old electronics working just fine on eBay, for example. No guarantee of course but I digress…

[Olaf_ZG]

I had the m9m, went to the m10m, and now have the m9m again.

I sold the original cause its buffer was bothering me. The 10 is/was great. Too great. Too perfect.

To me, the original is closest to b/w film photography.

 

 

[ramarren]

19 hours ago, pgh said:

...wouldn’t underestimate the ability of this stuff to keep going. There are plenty of functional 30 year old electronics working just fine on eBay, for example. No guarantee of course but I digress…

Indeed. My Olympus E-1 ... a full digital SLR ... is now 22 years old and still works perfectly. Shutter count is up there in the 60-70K actuations range now but that's well below the MTBF range for those bodies. I still use it occasionally despite its 5 Mpixel resolution. 

I have other electronic devices that are older than that and work fine, but that's probably the most complex electronic device I own. 

G

[espelt]

I can only speak for the European market. And here, the 10760 seems to be a hype right now. With a new sensor, the prices are higher than those of the 246. With a little luck, you can get it here for as little as €2,900. This may also be due to the current discussion about battery availability. They're nowhere to be found, at least not at the moment. But if you can get one with three good batteries, I think you won't have any problems for a while. And you'll get a wonderful camera. I'm sure I could also convert good black and white images using the data from an M11 or M10. I've already managed that very well with the data from the M240. Or even from the small D-Lux. Not really a problem with Photoshop or LR. The truly special thing about the Monochrom, however, is that when you've only used it for a while, you see things differently. And that's the crucial point for me. I pay different attention to light and shadows, structures, and contrasts. Things I often pay less attention to with a "regular" camera. Of course, that's limiting. In addition to the things that don't work with the M anyway. But if it works, you'll be rewarded with very nice results.

 

[kiwidad]

On 6/2/2025 at 6:58 PM, Kiwimac said:

Here in NZ Monochrom bodies aren’t abundant. We have a small population of which a small subset use Leica and an even smaller subset of that subset would buy a Monochrom body. 
 

The M11 Mono is of course available at NZ$18990. 
 

I’ve always fancied trying one but they’re never cheap. Ideally an M10M but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one for sale used here. 
 

There is a clean copy of the original 10760 available locally. 
 

I already have an M11-P so could just convert images from that and the newer sensor and higher resolution of 60MP vs 18MP might well make the converted M11-P images better quality than the 10760 images, I don’t know. 

Then there are the issues of things like battery availability and so on for the older bodies. 
 

I’m sure someone here will have helpful insight!

I have an M11 and M10M and the conversions from the M11 don't compare. The M10M is amazing in dark lighting which are difficult with the M11 to start with, those extra stops of sensitivity make a world of difference in noise as well. I toyed with an older mono but the scarcity of batteries and absurd cost toppled me in favor of the M10m and it isnt that much more expensive in the scheme of things. You could always get one used in the US and shipped to you. 

[Marac]

I still have and use my M9M with updated sensor & it continues to give me hassle-free photography pleasures.

[IkarusJohn]

On 6/21/2025 at 11:36 PM, kiwidad said:

I have an M11 and M10M and the conversions from the M11 don't compare. The M10M is amazing in dark lighting which are difficult with the M11 to start with, those extra stops of sensitivity make a world of difference in noise as well. I toyed with an older mono but the scarcity of batteries and absurd cost toppled me in favor of the M10m and it isnt that much more expensive in the scheme of things. You could always get one used in the US and shipped to you. 

Good choice, I think.

For others asking the question, a couple of points not made above.  First, when the corrosion of the cover glass issue first arose, Leica just put the same faulty sensor in as a replacement (to their eternal shame, in my view as they then didn’t warrant the replacement).  So, the second version of the sensor mentioned by Pippy above is critical.

Second, the DNG files straight out of the camera appear flat.  With subtle adjustment in LR, they come alive.  I prefer the Monochrom files to conversions from my M10-D.  I should at that this is the only camer I leave in Auto-ISO as at higher ISOs I don’t get the horrible, blotchy colout noise.

When mine dies, I will look for an M10-M, I think.

[Rupert Greenwell]

I did not know about the second replacement sensor.

My original M9M had the sensor changed . When  I sold it , I included  the covering  paperwork from Leica. I don't honestly know which sensor it was but it was probably the second .

I naturally regretted selling the camera and bought another from a UK Leica dealer. The dealer claimed that the sensor had been replaced but there was no paperwork . I made about 50 images which all looked fine until the last two images, one had a very faint band of vertical lines ,the next had a more distinctive band. You could even see it on the rear screen. I made a few more images and I could see the same thing each time. ( images were being made in good light etc, Sd card was fine )

I looked this up on this forum and other places on the internet and it seemed that it was a sensor problem. I returned the camera to the  dealer along with the SD card. I was offered a full refund straight away and I thought no more of it.

A few days  later I was looking at the same dealer's website and the very same M9M was being offered for sale again. If the camera had a fixable fault I would have thought that I would have been informed and given the option of keeping it after it had been corrected , plus it would  be under guarantee. The dealer would not have had time to send the camera to Leica for repair. I was a bit suspicious .

I have since bought another M9M, this camera has the paper work and had been serviced recently by Leica. 

 

 

 

[kiwidad]

On 6/21/2025 at 6:36 AM, kiwidad said:

I have an M11 and M10M and the conversions from the M11 don't compare. The M10M is amazing in dark lighting which are difficult with the M11 to start with, those extra stops of sensitivity make a world of difference in noise as well. I toyed with an older mono but the scarcity of batteries and absurd cost toppled me in favor of the M10m and it isnt that much more expensive in the scheme of things. You could always get one used in the US and shipped to you. 

Ditto, same here m11 and m10m

noise wise at high iso the m11 doesn’t hold a candle to the m10m

The noise is just different somehow also. I shoot at a jazz club and the color shots just don’t look as good!

perceived resolution wise the m10m is every bit as sharp as the m11 too.

Looking forward to some jazz tonight!