Crazy if M11-D is my first rangefinder?

[Tseg]

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I see some posts of some M11-D owners working through operational challenges.  Is it true the M11-D is the first Leica camera with challenges?

Anyway, mine has finally arrived at the vendor and I will be receiving tomorrow.   It is getting to me much quicker than expected... I haven't even ordered my first M-lens!

Are there ever Black Friday sales for M-lenses?

[pippy]

32 minutes ago, Tseg said:

...Is it true the M11-D is the first Leica camera with challenges?...

No.

Even ignoring 'all that came before' (from the UR-Leica through the 'NullSerie' etc) the first commercially available Leica - the Model 1 (A) from 1924 / 1925 - had several distinct operational challenges when considered against, say, every run of the mill modern-day-all-singing-all-dancing-auto-everything-digi-cam.

The M11-D is merely Leica's latest digital version to carry on their noble hereditary torch of 'Truly It Pays To Understand What You Are Doing'......😸......

Have fun with the 'D'!

Philip.

Edited November 14, 2024 by pippy

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, Tseg said:

I see some posts of some M11-D owners working through operational challenges.  Is it true the M11-D is the first Leica camera with challenges?

Anyway, mine has finally arrived at the vendor and I will be receiving tomorrow.   It is getting to me much quicker than expected... I haven't even ordered my first M-lens!

Are there ever Black Friday sales for M-lenses?

A lot of us users are operationally challenged 🤭

If you think the M11-D takes a bit of study to fully understand, try learning Nikon’s implementation of Auto ISO on the Zf for the first time 💀

[pippy]

I can't help but feel slightly bemused by how much mild apprehension there seems to be concerning the use of a 'D' camera. There is, essentially, nothing about using a D which is any more difficult than using any film Leica ever made since the advent of the rangefinder system back in 1932.

In principle there are four concepts - and only four - which need to be understood. ISO; Shutter-speed; Aperture; Focus. That's it. Every other feature is just 'Fluff'.

Things could hardly be more simplistic.

Philip.

Edited November 15, 2024 by pippy

[fenykepesz]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb pippy:

In principle there are four concepts - and only four - which need to be understood. ISO; Shutter-speed; Aperture; Focus. That's it. Every other feature is just 'Fluff'.

@pippy - you speak from my heart !  that's the entire D story, for some of us at least ::

• four buttons for pure physics
• viewfinder for true metaphysics.

that's it.  there is nothing more to understand, right ?  i believe the Fluff you mentioned is misleading, diverting from conceptual simplicism and hence impeding visual conceptualism.

uff, now i said it !  it may sound a bit arrogant, sorry about that - but i deeply believe in KISS philosophy.

[st4u]

18 hours ago, Tseg said:

I see some posts of some M11-D owners working through operational challenges.  Is it true the M11-D is the first Leica camera with challenges?

Anyway, mine has finally arrived at the vendor and I will be receiving tomorrow.   It is getting to me much quicker than expected... I haven't even ordered my first M-lens!

Are there ever Black Friday sales for M-lenses?

 

No, obvieousely Leica has become a luxury good and is only used with screen and Auto Mode...

If you are able to make pics like with an analogue film camera or want to learn it iterally like a film camera, you will be excited and satisfied as with a film camera.

In German the "black friday" stays for "Great Crash of 1929"... every purchase of a LEICA is a german meant black friday, a great crash in the wallet ....

take it, do it, work on it and enjoy...

regards Chris

[Tseg]

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12 minutes ago, st4u said:

 

 

If you are able to make pics like with an analogue film camera or want to learn it iterally like a film camera, you will be excited and satisfied as with a film camera.

 

To clarify, my reference to M11-D "challenges" include internal memory download issues, camera lock-ups, color issues, etc, that can be found posted in this forum and elsewhere... I was somewhat facicious (tongue in cheek) knowing many Leica cameras have experienced tech issues at one point or another.  Film cameras tend not to have these issues.

I've never shot with a film camera... but have been able to correlate that the "D" has many similarities to film cameras... and know that film cameras have been used successfully for many decades, which is why I had the confidence to plop down a wad of money for the M11-D as my first rangefinder, but also start this thread to doubly confirm.  Your post above validates this point.

[pippy]

8 minutes ago, Tseg said:

...my reference to M11-D "challenges" include internal memory download issues, camera lock-ups, color issues, etc, that can be found posted in this forum and elsewhere...

It will be interesting to see how you get on with your new purchase. Hopefully the download / lockup / freezing bugs - which have been mentioned in the Forum - will have been sorted out by now. As far as colour-balance (Magenta Bias?) is concerned? I'm not up to speed on how terrible the images from the M11 series are so couldn't possibly comment.

My own personal experience shooting with a D has been solely with the first 'general-release' version (M-D Typ-262) which was derived from the M240 generation of cameras the originals of which are now 12 years old(!). It has been in near-daily use since 2019 and I have never had any issues whatsoever. It suits my shooting-needs perfectly. I hope that you have a similar result with your M11-D.

Philip.

[st4u]

2 hours ago, Tseg said:

To clarify, my reference to M11-D "challenges" include internal memory download issues, camera lock-ups, color issues, etc, that can be found posted in this forum and elsewhere... I was somewhat facicious (tongue in cheek) knowing many Leica cameras have experienced tech issues at one point or another.  Film cameras tend not to have these issues.

I've never shot with a film camera... but have been able to correlate that the "D" has many similarities to film cameras... and know that film cameras have been used successfully for many decades, which is why I had the confidence to plop down a wad of money for the M11-D as my first rangefinder, but also start this thread to doubly confirm.  Your post above validates this point.

Sorry my misunderstood. I only have (a "new" IIIg and last non TTL M6 from 1999) a M10-D: Settings M ISO 12.500, Auto ISO max 6.400, shutter f/1,  EV -2/3 and jpg small b&w  and never changed. I sold the Visoflex after two weeks. I never use Leica Fotos for making pictures, sometimes for sending b&w pics out of the box. I never had any troubles with my loved M10-D, never had issues with the battery life, never needed a second battery during a day.

Because of many discussions in the forum I agree with your questions and arguments. Personally I´m healed and convinced not to buy any M11 Series, but I already have a screenless M. The second hand M10-D´s are expensive and not worth to buy except you will get a Leica Customer Cared CLA´d with wrranty.... Many will now argue not to buy an old techniqe...for my opinion sensor size or dynamics or High ISO will not be the arguments...

I'm afraid it won't get any less technical in future but with less heritage/ tradition. The base plate is gone, the brass is gone, spoiled for choice with the triple sensor - which size should I choose? with the result of the requirement to work even more precisely (danger of camera shake), the bad habit of cropping and looking for errors or choosing the wrong image section and misusing the M as a zoom. The technical problems that are probably always current are, in addition to the enormous technical challenges because of the big data sensor in creating the “LEICA look” with the result of huge data calculations and all of this in fractions of a second and then heat arises...

But firmware always becomes better, tehrfore take the M11-D, don´t forget you will have at least 2 years guarantee. In future Digital camera bodies will go (how will we re-programme the D´s if the iphone will disappear?) Analogue lenses will stay due to the lack of electronics. If you need a lens advice: Buy yourself a 35mm Summilx pre Asph or APO (only used as new, not new). Why 35? You can crop! (or take a 50mm Summicron v5 or Summilux pre asph. V3). Believe me (after countless lenses and GAS) you don't need anything else. We're just lying to ourselves about the GAS and costs a fortune. Who benefits from the collector's value if, firstly, it's lying around because a body can only hold one lens and, secondly, you'll never sell it again anyway, because you'll never sell a Leica lens! The second hand purchase prices are bad at the moment, good for you!
Photography means going out and taking photos!
Good light!

Chris

 

 

[Tseg]

What's in the box?

Now the wait for my first M lens to test this out.

I appreciate the guidance and well wishes.

(Have to like the Q3 43 Macro)

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Edited November 15, 2024 by Tseg

[kultflamingo]

Congratulations on your new companion @Tseg! It‘s a beauty and you made it look like a beauty. Nice images . 

I practically started with a „screenless“ Leica M9 . Sure it had a display but it was so rudimentary that you coul‘d at best check if a photo was taken. So I didn‘t use it much. But I loved the camera for years.

Surprisingly, when I got an M10 two years ago – even though the image quality is way better – I couldn‘t really get excited about it. I think in part because I’m a notorious perfectionist which makes me trying to control everything and made me check the images a lot which is completely senseless. 

I got an M10-D now and the excitement is back.

So I think your really did yourself a favor going with the M11-D. You won‘t miss anything. On the contrary, from my POV you got as much into Leica as you can get and therefore will enjoy it a lot. And also if ever you wanna sell it, it‘s the M version that‘s holding up the highest resale value.

Wish you a lot of pleasure!

Edited November 19, 2024 by kultflamingo

[Tseg]

Thanks!  

That was my logic... if I'm going to go in, I'm going to go all in.  I guess I'll know soon whether my logic was sound.

My first M lens arrives today, so I finally can use it... getting the 2023 28" Summicron.   I think it will end up smaller and lighter than my Q3 43.

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[Tseg]

Game on!

 

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[Derbyshire Man]

Looks nice!

I'd be nervous about using that wrist strap though without a whole load of protection for the body!

 

Edited November 19, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Tseg]

23 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Looks nice!

I'd be nervous about using that wrist strap though without a whole load of protection for the body!

 

Thanks.  Is there something specific about wrist strap vs. neck strap, or is your reference related to the perceived need of a half case?  Not having an LCD already provides additional protection vs. an M11P.

[Derbyshire Man]

Just looking at the metalwork associated with the strap. I'd go straight from the wrist strap circular link with a leather protection disk. That carabiner is going to take off the paint on the corner of your camera!

[pedaes]

53 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

is going to take off the paint on the corner of your camera!

and a lot of second hand value with it!

[Tseg]

4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Just looking at the metalwork associated with the strap. I'd go straight from the wrist strap circular link with a leather protection disk. That carabiner is going to take off the paint on the corner of your camera!

Ah, got it... I've been thinking about that... I do have leather protection disks already on order.   I wasn't sure if I wanted a "final strap setup".  The carabiner idea "looked good on paper".   But maybe I make the correction now and see how it works out.

[IkarusJohn]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:31 AM, 250swb said:

@Tseg it's madness, for your first digital rangefinder embrace the experience of what you get in a 'normal' digital M11. Then if having too much easily accessible information is an annoyance neuter it by not looking at the LCD. The 'D' variant isn't about making better photographs, it's about a refined version of the 'Leica performance', in which aspects of the Leica philosophy and user myths are taken to the extremes, like 'I only shoot wide open', or 'this lens is glued to my M camera', or 'my 35mm Summicron is the King of Bokeh', or 'I can hand hold at 1/8th second all day every day', or 'I don't do any post processing, but are my images crap?', or indeed 'I want the purity of the experience, but I don't know what the experience really is'.

Steve is always worth listening to. He’s considered, incredibly informative and isn’t shy about expressing his opinions!

I must say, I’m not sure what you’re asking.  An M11-D as your first rangefinder?  A rangefinder?  An M11 variant?  I get you want to buy once, buy well and be happy; but coming here is inconsistent with that goal. It will make you poor!

Okay, so first question - M11?  I’m not a fan, personally. I prefer the M10 as a more complete and resolved system. But that’s just me.  Can I ask you a question, though?  If you want a D series camera, why do you want different resolutions? different cropping? permanent live view with multiple metering modes off the sensor? and 60MP?  This camera has problems; but that’s a different issue, I guess.  People who have them love them.

The D series cameras are all about setting ISO, white balance and EV comp once, then JUST thinking about composition, aperture, shutter speed and focus; taking the image; and moving on.  That said, you can still set things once and treat the M11-D the same way. 

Rangefinder?  Just work it out. It has advantages and disadvantages - it just is what it is.  What it does do is remove one more complication. Very little information in the viewfinder, leaving you with what you see. What could be better?  The EVF is useful, but not really the point.  It’s biggest advantage is you know when you’ve left the lens cap on …

What I would say is, the M system is special. If you want really special get an M-A, but that might be a bit hairshirt; if you want a meter (why wouldn’t you?), get an MP; if you want digital (save all that processing and scanning), get an M11-D. It’s all about photography!

Once your camera arrives, don’t fret about what it isn’t; try to understand what it is - fabulous!

Edit - Ah, I see I was a page late!  Enjoy your camera. As my father told me in the late 60s, get out and take lots of pictures; learn how your camera works; then think about what you’re doing.  The good and the bad images are down to you, not the camera.
 

Edited November 20, 2024 by IkarusJohn

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[Tseg]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 Enjoy your camera. As my father told me in the late 60s, get out and take lots of pictures; learn how your camera works; then think about what you’re doing.  The good and the bad images are down to you, not the camera.
 

Thanks for the kind words and guidance.  As you suggest, one learning I have already with this new rangefinder system is remember to remove the lens cap!  I have already had a couple snaps with it on.  Maybe I should have considered an M10, but my logic is that Leica would support an M11 that many years longer.  Also, I hear battery life on the M11 is much better than the M10.   I’ve spent 12 years using a Sony RX1 with one eye on the battery meter.  I’m very happy to get away from that.  My one observation is the 28 Summicron v3 seems much less clinical than the 43 Summicron on my Q… I guess I would characterize it as more character.

So far, no regrets.