LLL 35/F2 8 elements stainless steel

[aficionados]

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A new version just came out, I doubt anyone has had held on it.

https://lightlenslab.com/blogs/upcoming-project/light-lens-lab-35mm-f-2-eight-element-in-stainless-steel

But what interests is this part

• Adjustments and changes to our element spacing, coating, and element fitment assembly are being made to achieve close render performance to the original 35mm f2 Eight Element and optimize for analogue photography.

What exactly does that mean?

I have a regular black version and I like it. I am wondering what does that "optimize for analogue" really mean in a layman's language.

[shirubadanieru]

Interesting, the coloring looks like titanium? Hard to see which camera color it would be a good match for (besides black paint that can take any color). Wonder if they will do that formula change to all versions of the replica moving forward (but also kinda wish they had done that from the start?!)

[69xchange]

Not to bash on LLL, but it seems like they are trying to go for “easy” profits similar to what Leica is doing.. by releasing “limited edition” lenses. Like the idea, but not so much of the price.  Their limited editions are almost double the price of the original/standard replicas. Getting closer to an actually 8E price territory, but still cheaper. It’s unfortunate the second hand market doesn’t hold value too well for LLL. 

Edited September 15, 2024 by 69xchange

[aficionados]

26 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Interesting, the coloring looks like titanium? Hard to see which camera color it would be a good match for (besides black paint that can take any color). Wonder if they will do that formula change to all versions of the replica moving forward (but also kinda wish they had done that from the start?!)

The wordings are vague about the changes, simply just "element spacing adjustment", "coating", "fitment assembly"...

The improvement is more vague: "close render performance".

I am interested in some comparison reviews on this. But LLL makes it harder as it is "limited 300 copies". I am feeling they are playing Leica's game: making a new verison of same lens with different color/material and then charge a premium for limited copies.

 

[aficionados]

11 minutes ago, 69xchange said:

Not to bash on LLL, but it seems like they are trying to go for “easy” profits similar to what Leica is doing.. by releasing “limited edition” lenses. Like the idea, but not so much of the price.  Their limited editions are almost double the price of the original/standard replicas. Getting closer to an actually 8E price territory, but still cheaper. It’s unfortunate the second hand market doesn’t hold value too well for LLL. 

This is exactly my thought.

Stainless steel isn't something premium, it's just different from brass.

If I can get it for about 1000, I may pull the trigger to just have fun. I have a "regular" one and I would love to see what "close render performance" they could achieve.

Edited September 15, 2024 by aficionados

[shirubadanieru]

I would say the only LLL lens that doesn’t perform too well in the used market is the Elcan, but that is because it seems to be the lens with least demand. I understand, while the rendering and size are amazing, the aperture ring going in the wrong way as to all other Leica lens kinda kills it for me (I understand the original was like that too but they could’ve “fixed it”). 

As for the 8 elements, all limited versions I see here in Japan on sale are very hard to find and if being sold online go for higher than the original price. And the price of the special editions, including the titanium, is still very far from the original by the way. The original (at least here in Japan) goes for 800,000~1,000,000 JPY (USD 5600ish~7000ish), whereas the LLL is less than 4 times that. 

[aficionados]

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Ok I placed an order of stainless steel to just have fun. I want to see what kind of “flaw” it will show up on my M11 comparing to the regular version I also have.

I will report back when I get it.

[pippy]

On 9/15/2024 at 5:16 AM, 69xchange said:

Not to bash on LLL, but it seems like they are trying to go for “easy” profits similar to what Leica is doing.. by releasing “limited edition” lenses...

 With all due respect, 69xchange, I suggest that you read up FAR more fully about the genesis and ultimate execution of LLL's '8 E' offering before you suggest that they are going for "easy profits". Absolutely nothing about the LLL revesed-engineered '8 Element' could possibly be described as having been "easy"; quite the opposite and by a VERY large margin.

What LLL has achieved with their '8 Element' is utterly extraordinary and unprecidented. Additionally I believe that what LLL managed to do with the 50mm ELCAN reverse-engineered offering was similarly extraordinary.

Philip.

[aficionados]

26 minutes ago, pippy said:

 With all due respect, 69xchange, I suggest that you read up FAR more fully about the genesis and ultimate execution of LLL's '8 E' offering before you suggest that they are going for "easy profits". Absolutely nothing about the LLL revesed-engineered '8 Element' could possibly be described as having been "easy"; quite the opposite and by a VERY large margin.

What LLL has achieved with their '8 Element' is utterly extraordinary and unprecidented. Additionally I believe that what LLL managed to do with the 50mm ELCAN reverse-engineered offering was similarly extraordinary.

Philip.

I think what 69exchange meant by “easy” profit is the release of so-called “limited” edition of stainless steel version to the regular brass version. I don’t think there is any optical changes (I don’t know, I haven’t got my order yet), but merely changing the housing material and claiming it’s limited edition then charging 50% more is to my standard an easy profit. Same as what Leica did to summilux 35 steel rim in black paint. It’s easy money 

[Greenhilltony]

Have to tell you guys the best way to get products from LLL is seeking trades in China, especially on the e-commercial platforms. IIRC they charged about 50% more for the 8E regular editions on their website for international orders, probably because they include the taxes in consideration of the pricing. On the other hand they don’t setup their official marketing channel within China, instead they distribute to a handful of sellers in Taobao. Second hand copies circulate in Xianyu, the platform derived from Taobao specifically for second hand market, do not see a price increase as mentioned in the previous posts here. Actually LLL’s products receive way more unjustified hate at home, being looked down upon by a large portion of Chinese Leica lovers.

[pippy]

10 hours ago, aficionados said:

I think what 69exchange meant by “easy” profit is the release of so-called “limited” edition of stainless steel version to the regular brass version......merely changing the housing material and claiming it’s limited edition then charging 50% more is to my standard an easy profit...

Ah!

In which case I completely misunderstood the comments made by 69exchange and offer-up my apologies to them for my confusion!

Philip.

[aficionados]

I just got the lens delivered and mounted to M9.

I must say it's quite surprising that the color matches the M9 steel grey quit well.

The lens does feel a bit tighter than original brass version, especially focus ring and aperture ring. I am not sure if it's because it's new or fitment improvements.

I will do some comparison testing of this stainless steel vs the brass version in the coming days on M11 when the weather is better here.

 

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Edited September 23, 2024 by aficionados

[Loplop]

Any quick thoughts?  I had a close brush with an original 8e this weekend that didn’t work out for me. I had one years ago, loved it, sadly sold it on.

Hovering over a buy button on this one..  a bit interested yet nervous in the reported “improvements.”

[aficionados]

6 hours ago, Loplop said:

Any quick thoughts?  I had a close brush with an original 8e this weekend that didn’t work out for me. I had one years ago, loved it, sadly sold it on.

Hovering over a buy button on this one..  a bit interested yet nervous in the reported “improvements.”

Funny you asked, I was just doing some testing. Here are the two attached.

First one is the original brass, the second one is the stainless steel. There is no post-process other than cropping to make the frame similar. They were both shot wide open at f2, ISO 160 on a replaced sensor M9. White balance is set to 5600k. Same lighting condition, two shots were only a few minutes apart.

You see any difference? From my layman's eyes, I don't. 

Same sharpness, same contrast. Maybe, just maybe the brass version color is a little bit more saturated. Tell me if I am wrong, it might be just my monitor.

Pardon me for the quality of the pictures, it's shrunk down to smaller size in order to get them uploaded here.

So my suggestion, this so-called stainless steel "improved" is a marketing stunt. You won't see any difference. I bought it only because it's dirt cheap for me to buy from China.

 

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[aficionados]

...And here are the two lenses on M9, they both look good aesthetically.

Again my suggestion, is LLL 8e has good value, but the variation on materials to claim the "improvement" is just false.

As I said before, the stainless steel version does feel a little bit more stiff/tight on the focus ring, but I doubt it's an improvement other than just some copy variations.

Buy whatever version/material that is cheaper if you like this kind of rendering, which I do. So I have two copies.

 

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Edited September 29, 2024 by aficionados

[Loplop]

Awesome, thank you. I could persuade myself that the stainless version is a touch brighter, most notable in the yellow but also a bit in the red. If exposure was the same then either saturation or contrast is a touch different. Camera position shifted a tad so it’s hard to tell for sure, but bokeh looks a smidge different in the chair in the background. 
 

But for all intents and purposes they seem virtually the same and this is splitting hairs.   More testing might reveal more, but I am satisfied here and just decided to make the leap. I was able to get the stainless version for a little less than normal black, ordering from china, as well. I think it looks unique, so why not!

Speaking of unique, that brass version is indeed quite unique!  Is that uncoated raw brass which will blacken as you touch it, or have they clear coated it?  I had a raw brass horn (trumpet) for some years. I like the look, but I did polish it on occasion. 
 

Thanks again for posting those!

[aficionados]

3 hours ago, Loplop said:

Awesome, thank you. I could persuade myself that the stainless version is a touch brighter, most notable in the yellow but also a bit in the red. If exposure was the same then either saturation or contrast is a touch different. Camera position shifted a tad so it’s hard to tell for sure, but bokeh looks a smidge different in the chair in the background. 
 

But for all intents and purposes they seem virtually the same and this is splitting hairs.   More testing might reveal more, but I am satisfied here and just decided to make the leap. I was able to get the stainless version for a little less than normal black, ordering from china, as well. I think it looks unique, so why not!

Speaking of unique, that brass version is indeed quite unique!  Is that uncoated raw brass which will blacken as you touch it, or have they clear coated it?  I had a raw brass horn (trumpet) for some years. I like the look, but I did polish it on occasion. 
 

Thanks again for posting those!

I am certain that the exposure of the two pictures are exactly same. It’s f/2, iso160, ss500, white balance 5500k.

The lighting condition was almost same since it’s only a minute apart.

I looked the other pictures at f2.8 and f4, you are right that the pictures taken by stainless version do seem a tad bit brighter. That’s probably why I feel the brass version is more saturated and/or contrast. This observation is consistent across all the apertures even though I only uploaded f/2 pictures.

But as you said, the difference is very minor, and I can’t judge if the difference is from the building materials or it’s simply copy variations.

Anyhow, I think at the price of what I bought it’s a good value.

I bought the brass version about a year ago and I got a deal almost same as black version. The brass is not true bare brass, there is a coating outside. It won’t darken when I touch it.

I just got the stainless version a week ago and it was also a bit cheaper than black. I don’t think this so called 300 limited edition is a true seller. It seems they have difficulties to sell 300 copies. So they had to discount it.

One note though, these pictures were taken by M9 CCD sensor, you may see color less saturated if you use it on CMOS sensor like M10 or M11. I tried it on M11, it does show less contrast and saturated 

Edited September 29, 2024 by aficionados

[pippy]

22 hours ago, Loplop said:

...Camera position shifted a tad so it’s hard to tell for sure, but bokeh looks a smidge different in the chair in the background...

The Boke might well look a smudge different precisely because the camera position shifted slightly...

I thank aficianados for taking the time to do the quick comparison. The photographs do, indeed, look very similar.

 To compare the fine subtleties of Boke in any truly scientific meanigful way would require very closely-controlled test parameters involving camera-positioning etc. but I think the shots as posted show that, in a Real-World situation, the results from the two lenses are so similar to one another that it makes no odds whichever lens one decides to acquire and use.

Philip.