M8 file against 1Ds3 file :)

[AlanG]

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So to answer your question, I'd disagree with you --- to my eyes, the M8 renders low-contrast detail better than the 5D and at least as well as or even slightly better than the 1Ds2. Sorry.

 

Cheers,

 

I think it is one thing to compare pictures it is another thing to form conclusions. This is a bit subjective. We can certainly say that all of the photos are pretty good and the difference between them may not be too great. (My customers would probably be happy with any of them.) I do believe that some of this is a result of "dumbing down" all of the cameras by using 400 ISO. I know that 100 ISO 5D images look better than 400 ISO 5D images. Why not shoot all of them at their lowest ISOs? (A high megapixel camera is usually bought for it its maximum resolution capability.)

 

I don't want to criticize your effort but it just leaves us to make a visual comparison and does not provide any kind of measured data. And it is only one picture of one subject. If one wants to draw a conclusion it would have been useful to include a resolution chart and moved the Leica a little closer so that the field of view would match that of the Canons. With a resolution chart included one could actually measure the results rather than try to decide if a texture is more visible in one image than in another. (I don't think texture is a good thing to compare as it is affected by noise and other factors.) It would be good to see very sharp vertical, horizontal, and diagonal lines (various angles) as in a test chart, to see what is really going on.

 

So I don't think there is enough information to form solid conclusions that we can all agree on.

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[Jamie Roberts]

Alan,

 

You're right of course, but it bears repeating that Jack did say that these are his initial impressions only, and not a full-out test.

 

FWIW, I like my 5d a lot, and everyone knows I like the M8 too.

 

After having shot and processed now 10s of thousands of images with a 5d and the best of Canon glass (and Leica R glass with an adapter), and over a year and 10s of thousands now on the M8 right along beside it, I keep coming back to the "I ultimately like the M8 files better, and I like shooting the M8 better." Ultimately, I agree with Jack's assessment.

 

They're both great cameras though. And none of this doesn't mean I need an AF DSLR any less, at least for now: we'll see what the next Leica dSLR is like )

[AlanG]

...After having shot and processed now 10s of thousands of images with a 5d and the best of Canon glass (and Leica R glass with an adapter), and over a year and 10s of thousands now on the M8 right along beside it, I keep coming back to the "I ultimately like the M8 files better, and I like shooting the M8 better." Ultimately, I agree with Jack's assessment.

 

They're both great cameras though. And none of this doesn't mean I need an AF DSLR any less, at least for now: we'll see what the next Leica dSLR is like )

 

I guess I was coming at it from a different perspective than which is better (5D vs. M8). More like, what do I get by buying a 1DsIII? Judging from these shots, on typical images under all but the best circumstances, when using ISO 400, one might have to look pretty closely to see much difference between results from any of these cameras.

 

I guess I was thinking that the 1DsIII at 21 megapixels and providing approximately 50% more resolution than a 5D and M8, I should see a greater difference. And perhaps this would be more apparent if the test shots were made at 100 ISO. I guess a visual comparison of images, similar to these made by Jack, but of my typical subjects using my lenses at 100 ISO would be enough to show me if the 1DsIII would be worth it to me. (I expect to be doing this test soon with an M8 thrown in.)

 

But then I thought the key questions are: Just because the camera has 21 megapixels does it actually produce 50% more resolution? (Some kind of measured tests need to be made to establish this.) Then, consider if this is readily achievable due to the limitations of your specific lenses and how you shoot. And if it can provide this additional resolution, how significant is 50% more resolution to each user when you already have 10 or 12 megapixels?

 

When is enough enough? (I guess this varies on who you are and what you do with the pictures.)

But I think a lot of photographers already have enough with various cameras.

[zi_freak]

John: Thanks and glad you enjoyed it -- it is pretty remarkable, isn't it?

 

Rob: I have not compared the M8 directly to the 1D3, but in the comparison you're having trouble viewing, I did compare to similar crops from the 1Ds3, 1Ds2 and 5D. As well as the M8 did in this test, I suspect it may actually outperform the 1D3...

 

Cheers,

 

You suspect? Why didn't you include it in the test than and show the results, in my opinion knowing is better than suspecting.

 

K.

[Jack_Flesher]

You suspect? Why didn't you include it in the test than and show the results, in my opinion knowing is better than suspecting.

 

K.

 

Uh, BECAUSE I DON'T OWN A 1D3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stunsworth]

So you don't know which is better. Fair enough.

[rob_x2004]

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I sometimes think there is validity in a test that takes a camera out of the box, points it at something and makes the frame, then tweaks to the cameras ultimate ability, whether that is low iso, RAW, whatever, just to bench mark what one can do in practice. You arent going to stand off set your iso and crop your cameras image just to be fair to other photographers.

 

I think the 1D is at the same price point as the M8 now, suffers less issues, so in practice if you are up against it likely the canon will be still functioning. One of the biggies for me is battery time and reliability. I would like the m8 to be as good a "camera" as other brands, then the files it delivers, its absence of sophisticated metering and focus wouldnt be troubling at all.

[chris_tribble]

I don't think I'm a voice in the wilderness, but as there seems to be a lot of M8 bashing (for real reasons given some of the QA issues that are being mentioned on the list) I thought I'd give some examples of how the M8 does the business for different clients in different contexts. You have to learn how to use it and especially you have to learn how to process RAW, but once you're there, IMHO the M8 does what a rangefinder should do and does it remarkably well.

 

I make 20%-40% of my income with a camera. I've used film and negative, I've processed and printed my own work, and worked with labs. Now I shoot digital. I use Canon pro level DSLRs with L glass and I use Leica. Like both systems, will keep using both. In the last month I've been in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, France, Spain and the UK. Some of the work was photographic, others part of my consultancy and academic work. I've had 2 M8s and a bag of lenses with me on all these trips and they have been the only photographic tool I've used. I shoot for myself and for clients. Below are some shots from this period, at ISOs ranging from 160 through 1250, using mostly 28 f2, 35 f2 & 75 f1.4 lenses (seem to be defaulting around here with occasional forays down to 15 CV and up to 135 APO Telyt).

 

I'm putting this work here to remind people that the M8s can be used for a range of paid and personal work, in performance, documentary, reportage, landscape, what you will. Sure, there will be times when you'll want another tool, but for my purposes, it's the only system which lets me carry two bodies and eight lenses in a small Domke satchel. It's the only system that lets me work unobtrusively in quiet spaces in available light (OK - I don't have a Sony R1...). And for me it works. The shutter release is smooth, the files are clean up to 1250 (and 2400's usable to my eye), the screen doesn't flicker now I've the latest firmware, it doesn't die on me (hubris, hubris I know...!).

 

So it you're reading the list and thinking that the M8's dead in the water and the only thing to do is to wait for a reliable M9 iteration, I'd say don't worry. We've got a reliable, high quality digital RF - it's called the M8.

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[rob_x2004]

Yea but I keep reading posts from people who own them and send them back to solms.

If it is a pro tool then it doesnt really cost you anything except cash flow. It is a legitimate business expense, either write off or amortized, whatever, buy several to get you through its not a lot of business dough. If it isnt for business it is a straight up risk at five k plus service cost after warranty.

[tjv]

Man, a lot of this talk is pathetic.

 

I gave up on my M8 early in the piece as I needed something reliable to finish a major (for me) project. I don't regret that decision. It was early days and a first gen model and at that stage no fixes to initial bugs were finalized. I went back to film, both 35mm and 120, 3 M bodies and a Mamiya 7ii and love the results. But I'm the first to admit now that if I wanted a digi body to use with my existing M lens line up, that I can pick up and use exactly how I would with my other gear, then there is no other choice. If it costs me $5000US seems inconsequential seeing as buying into a complete new system would cost me just as much, if not more, not to mention take up three times more baggage space.

 

Some of you guys need to grow up and get off your techno-nerd high horses.

[stunsworth]

The word is that they will not wait for Photokina. It's ready long before then and they need to press the button sooner, which makes a lot of sense.

 

You keep dangling the hook (complete with juicy worm), but no one seems to want to bite <grin>.

[Rolo]

You keep dangling the hook (complete with juicy worm), but no one seems to want to bite <grin>.

 

You will have noted that Sean and Guy are doing the same.

 

I suspect that we're all well aware that upgrades are inevitable and Leica have to stem the cost of warranty repairs to keep sales up and prices down. The product is a proven winner and we know the market is much bigger than the 'early adopters' and the 'Leica Loyalists'.

 

My timing info is from a reliable source.

 

No more to be said.

 

Rolo

[ndjambrose]

I sometimes think there is validity in a test that takes a camera out of the box, points it at something and makes the frame, then tweaks to the cameras ultimate ability, whether that is low iso, RAW, whatever, just to bench mark what one can do in practice. ....

 

I completely agree. If I'm comparing cameras for myself I like to know what is the best possible image each can make. In real life I'd always adjust the camera so that it's performing at its maximum potential for the conditions and subject. Therefore I see no reason to treat tests any differently. The only common elements I'd maintain are the subject, light and shooting position.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

If I may jump in a little . Well we all heard the rumors from DR. Kaufman and Steven Lee that there is a R10 , 24 lenses and maybe a smaller M digital. Than the M9 rumors of FF. Let's face a few facts , leica certainly can't sit back and ride the coat tails of the M8 for that long a period and to compete you must produce. Steven Lee comes from American business executive branch of the world , he is simple going to drive the company to make product and make money. That is his role and reason he was hired was to make Leica profitable. really there is no secret there and the writing is on the wall for him to do that. You can only do that if you have something to sell. So next year will prove to be a very busy year for Leica. When these guys are throwing out hints than i think there pretty darn serious about it and the fact i can't squeeze a drop of info from anyone than you know something is going on. LOL

 

Honestly when Leica says nothing at all than you know something is brewing. Personally my opinion is Photokinia a R10 with several AF lenses , a M9 FF and a small M too. Oh and 24 lenses for both systems total we just got 4 of them called the Summarits. That is my bet and if I am wrong than i am wrong no big deal but I am waiting it out . Now jacks test to me was just a quick sample of the 1dsMKIII and we should all just look at it in that vein, not a full blown test but just a piece of the pie to give you a idea what it is doing and even Jack says that. i know him very well and he would test it for days on end if he was going to write a complete review on it. But his test does show some shortcomings and one is 22mpx does not double the output of the file far from it. What i think it does do is raise a red flag to canon owners and say hey you better be sure this upgrade is worth your dollars and if Canon did put a stronger AA filter on it and you have to add more sharpening to get the detail there than you really need to look at this with a question mark. No one is saying not to buy it but what he is saying is make sure what fox hole your stepping into before giving up your current body.

 

Canon is well known for putting in small increments of substance in every new model every 18 months and sometimes it is worth skipping a generation. My feeling is make real sure whatever increase there maybe to check it against what you currently have and make a real judgement call with your money. Just because it says 22mpx does not mean you are getting what you think 22mpx should be.

 

From what i have seen does stop me in my tracks and wait for Leica and see what they do next.

[Jack_Flesher]

So you don't know which is better. Fair enough.

 

Which is precisely what I said in the original comment, so thanks for saving me the trouble of repeating it!

 

Cheers,

[sean_reid]

You will have noted that Sean and Guy are doing the same.

Rolo

 

What?

[Jack_Flesher]

For those interested, I've just added unsharpened ISO 200 crops to the review...

[photoarne]

For those interested, I've just added unsharpened ISO 200 crops to the review...

 

Thank you for doing that Jack, very informative IMO. What these crops suggest is that the AA filter in the 1DsIII is indeed somewhat stronger than in the 1DsII, unless what we are seeing is the III's sensor outresolving the lens used which could cause a similar impression.

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[chris_tribble]

Thank you for doing that Jack, very informative IMO. What these crops suggest is that the AA filter in the 1DsIII is indeed somewhat stronger than in the 1DsII, unless what we are seeing is the III's sensor outresolving the lens used which could cause a similar impression.

 

Looking at Reichman's comments on the 1dsIII outresolving is likely to be the main issue with such large pixel counts on 35mm... Laws of diminishing returns have to set in at some point, and it's possible that 22mpx is a step too far for the format...

 

re Guy's comments

Personally my opinion is Photokinia a R10 with several AF lenses , a M9 FF and a small M too. Oh and 24 lenses for both systems total we just got 4 of them called the Summarits.

 

... a selfish bit of me hopes that we don't get the M9 before the M8 has been made as good as it can be through firmware ... but I suppose that's the digital replacement treadmill we all bought into when we made the decision to get the first iteration of the digital M... Glad I've still got my M6TTL and M7 - at least they're not going to suffer from upgrade redundancy...

[mhoersch]

Actually, I don't want 24 new lenses, an M9 and a smaller M - I want an M8 that works without lockups, without venetian blinds, without madly scrolling menus, without hopping pictures in review, without fully charged batteries that show as almost empty. I want an M8 that does not lock up and discard 10 out of 11 images taken in continuous mode. I would be most happy, indeed, if I could have a digital M that actually works - not most of the time but every time. In short: I would like to have Leica quality back. The price for the M8 is already Leica enough for me, but I want the Leica quality that should go with a price like that.

 

My compliments to Mr. Lee: until Leica returns to producing Leica quality I will use the M8 for fun - and Canon gear when I need to deliver...