Panasonic S9 - a harbinger of things to come at Leica?

[BradS]

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I bet that Leica Engineers and Marketing people would be quite exasperated with the request for an L-mount Leica Q3 with IBIS (and a grip). I'm pretty sure that that is exactly what the SL3 is intended to be. Yes, we want it smaller and lighter but the SL3 is likely the best they can do at present. I applaud them for the effort and encourage them to continue to strive to improve the quality/reliability and the AF performance. Oh, and can we please have some smaller lenses. 

Edited June 16, 2024 by BradS

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[bobtodrick]

Here’s an analogy.

I really like the Porsche 911…but boy if the put in a 3rd row of seating and a sliding door to make ingress easier I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

I just described a dozen minivans and SUV’s on the market…I doubt if Porsche is going to change the 911 😂

[BradS]

...but even Porsche couldn't ignore the market for SUVs. 

I have owned a couple of 911's - a 1971 911T and a 1989 911S but no more. Both got me into a lot of trouble. Now that I'm grown-up, I prefer the Panamera but it's not a very practical car to own/drive in this part of the country so, I have a Subaru.

Edited June 16, 2024 by BradS

[bobtodrick]

5 minutes ago, BradS said:

...but even Porsche couldn't ignore the market for SUVs. 

I have owned a couple of 911's - a 1971 911T and a 1989 911S but no more. Both got me into a lot of trouble. Now that I'm grown-up, I prefer the Panamera but it's not a very practical car to own/drive in this part of the country so, I have a Subaru.

That’s funny…I had aa Alfa Romeo Spyder in the 70’s…for a car that had all of 125hp I got more speeding tickets in the four years I owned than the forty years since 😂

[LocalHero1953]

54 minutes ago, BradS said:

It is not valid to draw conclusions about, "the majority of people" based only upon a sample of the opinion of people who've already made the purchase.  I've seen many, many, many folks state that they wish the Q / Q2 / Q3 had a focal length other than 26/28mm for example. Interestingly many owners also express this desire/regret.

I'm also a bit perplexed by the "if you don't like it, buy something else" attitude expressed by some here - especially from someone who makes a living in retail sales. I was under the impression, possibly erroneous, that listening to customers, treating them with respect and responding to market opportunities was considered good business.

I suspect it is a more valid sample than one based on what you read on a forum. (FTAOD if Leica made a 35mm or 50mm Q, then good for them - but I'd stick to 28mm).

And if I were in retail sales (heaven forbid) and someone looking at Camera A said they wanted the things that Camera B can do, then I would treat them respect and respond to the marketing opportunities and sell them Camera B. Good business.

🤷‍♂️

[Le Chef]

53 minutes ago, BradS said:

I bet that Leica Engineers and Marketing people would be quite exasperated with the request for an L-mount Leica Q3 with IBIS (and a grip)

They would, because they've heard it many times before and know it's not possible.

[bobtodrick]

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30 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I suspect it is a more valid sample than one based on what you read on a forum. (FTAOD if Leica made a 35mm or 50mm Q, then good for them - but I'd stick to 28mm).

🤷‍♂️

Yes, I’m pretty sure most companies base product on sales figures and legitimate reviews (DP Review and the like)…not a half dozen forum members wish lists.

[BradS]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

They would, because they've heard it many times before and know it's not possible.

 (Luke makes a great and concerted effort to raise the X wing fighter from the swap but fails. The ship falls back into the swap and sinks deeper into the muck)

Luke, (exasperated and psychologically beaten):  ah, master, it's not possible!  (he crumbles to the ground)

Yoda: Ah, so certain are you. Always with you, what is not possible.

(Master Yoda uses the force to raise the ship high above the swampy water and sets it gently down on firm land)

 

It may be that it is "not possible" given the constraints that Leica is faced with / has chosen but it is certainly not the case that it is "not possible" in the absolute sense. I'm sure that they'd also like to concentrate limited resources on improving the current products.

Edited June 16, 2024 by BradS

[Olaf_ZG]

2 hours ago, BradS said:

I'm also a bit perplexed by the "if you don't like it, buy something else" attitude expressed by some here - especially from someone who makes a living in retail sales. I was under the impression, possibly erroneous, that listening to customers, treating them with respect and responding to market opportunities was considered good business.

It’s the utterly arrogance which killed many businesses cause they ignored the world around them.

I went into a shop the other day, 7k burning in my pocket, willing to spend. “Sir”, I asked, “I want to have a FF camera with a 45-ish lens.”. 
“You don’t want this”,  replied the salesman. “You want a 28mm! Everybody wants that!”. 
“No, I don’t “, I replied. “Then go, and buy somewhere else!” Said the salesguy.

Off I went, another satisfied customer leaving the store. Not coming back to complain.

Wonder how long such shop will exist…

[bobtodrick]

7 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

It’s the utterly arrogance which killed many businesses cause they ignored the world around them.

I went into a shop the other day, 7k burning in my pocket, willing to spend. “Sir”, I asked, “I want to have a FF camera with a 45-ish lens.”. 
“You don’t want this”,  replied the salesman. “You want a 28mm! Everybody wants that!”. 
“No, I don’t “, I replied. “Then go, and buy somewhere else!” Said the salesguy.

Off I went, another satisfied customer leaving the store. Not coming back to complain.

Wonder how long such shop will exist…

Well, we’ve been in business since 1948 and just moved into a new space with twice the square footage…so I’ll say quite a while!

Tell me…what is your actual background in product planning and implementation?

I’m pretty sure Leica has some pretty well qualified people in these positions.

I know we all at times think we know better than anyone else…lots of failed business that started with that attitude.

[Olaf_ZG]

5 minutes ago, bobtodrick said:

Well, we’ve been in business since 1948 and just moved into a new space with twice the square footage…so I’ll say quite a while!

Tell me…what is your actual background in product planning and implementation?

I’m pretty sure Leica has some pretty well qualified people in these positions.

I know we all at times think we know better than anyone else…lots of failed business that started with that attitude.

Zero background in product planning and implementation. I admit, but I am not challenging Leica here. I am just a customer quoting his wishes. It’s up to Leica to decide if it’s worth or not.

But plenty of background in high end luxury retail and wholesale. Decades of my working life. And still adjusting to customer needs/wishes.

In current economy it isn’t about how long you are in business, it’s all about being agile. 
Telling customers to buy somewhere else doesn’t make sense to me at all.

I do believe that most of Q buyers are very happy with their purchase. What I simply don’t get is that people are so against other wishes, especially when in retail. 

[Olaf_ZG]

@bobtodrickbut let’s stop discussing cause I gave up on a Q40/50. Even if Leica would release it. Current problems with m11/sl3 made me listen to you. “Buy sth else”.

I have quite invested in both nice setup of m and sl. The m10 and sl2 will last for many years, and afterwards, when mine die, second hand market is/will remain plenty.

So, not upgrading for sure. The gas need for an edc will be fulfilled with another brand (if I want it).

And Leica should focus on things getting right with current problems before new releases anyway. Too many problems to focus on.

[bobtodrick]

12 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Zero background in product planning and implementation. I admit, but I am not challenging Leica here. I am just a customer quoting his wishes. It’s up to Leica to decide if it’s worth or not.

But plenty of background in high end luxury retail and wholesale. Decades of my working life. And still adjusting to customer needs/wishes.

In current economy it isn’t about how long you are in business, it’s all about being agile. 
Telling customers to buy somewhere else doesn’t make sense to me at all.

I do believe that most of Q buyers are very happy with their purchase. What I simply don’t get is that people are so against other wishes, especially when in retail. 

I’ve been involved with Leica for nearly 50 years as a user, sales and with a close relationship with Leitz Canada in the 70’s and 80’s (when they made such stellar products as the original Noctilux).

A number of times we have nearly lost them because they are not a big company…one big misstep could have dire consequences,

It’s not that I’m against what people ask,  it’s that I know that Leica is small enough, and R&R and implementing new product is so expensive that they have to be very careful.

[Simone_DF]

48 minutes ago, bobtodrick said:

Tell me…what is your actual background in product planning and implementation?

Well, I've been working 20 years in that field, working for some of the biggest companies out there on both hardware and software releases in roles such as business analyst, product owner, test manager and project manager. I worked on products lifecycles from early inception to public release.

Do you think this is enough for you?

[Simone_DF]

5 hours ago, bobtodrick said:

Most of my customers (been here since 1993) I see on a regular basis.  I have not had one of my customers regret their Q purchase.

The vast majority of people find the Q to be exactly what they want…this forum included.   It’s just the odd thread like this where the same 4 or 5 people who want the Q to be what it was never designed to be go on and on.

Unsurprisingly, people that don't want to buy a 28mm Q also won't regret their purchase. Doh.

Anyway, I'm another one of those that got a Q2, tried it for a few months, then sold it. However, to be honest, in that case it was the sum of other issues with the camera (ISO and AF performance) that made me sell the camera, more than the 28mm lens.

[bobtodrick]

12 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Well, I've been working 20 years in that field, working for some of the biggest companies out there on both hardware and software releases in roles such as business analyst, product owner, test manager and project manager. I worked on products lifecycles from early inception to public release.

Do you think this is enough for you?

You say you worked for some of the biggest companies…that’s what you don’t get….LEICA AIN’T BIG!!!!

They have to do things carefully.

Case in point…Rolex sells about 1 million watches a year…combining all models Leica sells about 30,000 cameras, about what Canon/Nikon sell in a month.

I’m done with this…if your so sure of this, call Leica and offer up a few million dollars of your money to proceed…they just may take you up on it.

Edited June 16, 2024 by bobtodrick

[Olaf_ZG]

The q40/50 will cannibalize sales. 
 

Leica bringing out an app which is made for a 28mm phone simulating the best lenses they ever had.

No need to buy the Q anymore, no need for the lenses. Just buy the app, only retailer needed is apple…

[Simone_DF]

35 minutes ago, bobtodrick said:

You say you worked for some of the biggest companies…that’s what you don’t get….LEICA AIN’T BIG!!!!

I worked for some of the biggest, but also for small companies.

 

35 minutes ago, bobtodrick said:

if your so sure of this, call Leica

I did it yesterday:

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, BradS said:

It may be that it is "not possible" given the constraints

This discussion will no doubt go on between the pragmatic business experienced posters vs the dreamers until they all get exhausted.

If you read up to an earlier post you will see why it’s not practical regardless of whether it would be Fuji, Canon, Nikon or Sony attempting it. Of course it’s possible but it would cost you far too much to implement when there maybe a cheaper alternative.

Maybe the S9 could be converted. It would need an EVF. That might be added on like a Visoflex, or it could mean a completely new superstructure with a built in EVF. It would also require a hot shoe somewhere. Most of the controls would need to be changed to align with the Q3 and SL3. And that’s before you address the question of where’s the business coming from? How many people might have bought a Q3 or SL3 and what profit do you lose on each of those sales if you sell a Leica 9 alternative, unless you price significantly higher than the competition?

You’re still left with “weighty” L-mount lenses to contend with…

 

[BradS]

2 hours ago, bobtodrick said:

You say you worked for some of the biggest companies…that’s what you don’t get….LEICA AIN’T BIG!!!!

They have to do things carefully.

Big or small, doesn't really matter. They all have to do things carefully if they are going to survive and thrive.

case in point, pretty early in my career, I was working for one of the big three automobile manufactures in Detroit (yes, one of the largest, most well known companies in the world). The product I was working on was #2 in sales volume (right behind Toyota Camry) during those years. On average, one unit rolled off the end of the line every minute for 10~20 hours a day! The company had a "data driven" culture before it was called that (see "The Wiz Kids"). There were posters on the walls in engineering offices that said, "In G-d  we trust. All others, bring data". Every single change we made had to be supported by data - including: customer usage statistics, piece cost, expected warranty cost/savings, customer satisfaction, cost of upstream manufacturing changes, etc ... Anyway, I remember sitting in a meeting with a vice president, a bunch of managers of all levels from the various areas and the several scientists and engineers who were supporting proposed changes that day (of which I was one). About thirty high paid people in a conference room each waiting to make their pitch. We were proposing adding a part that cost less than $0.10 each to a product that, at the time retailed for around $20,000. It seemed like a no-brainer decision to me....add this ten cent part, prevent this failure from happening, save this much warranty cost, and avoid this much customer dis-satisfaction, etc...but no, it was a very carefully considered decision process. We presented our case and supporting data, a manufacturing engineer weighed in, supply chain, service, etc, ten minutes of discussion ensued and in the end, the VP wanted more time to evaluate the data off-line - a quiet veto.  I couldn't believe it!  Afterward, I asked one of the more senior people in my group what happened, why our proposed improvement wasn't accepted - again, it seemed completely obvious to me.  He said, ten cents a vehicle, half a million per year, target retail price of $------, do the math. You can't do everything and satisfy all of the constraints even when it seems obvious from an engineering and customer point of view to be the best thing to do. Maybe next year, kid. 
 

point is, Leica, as a company, really isn't special.

Edited June 16, 2024 by BradS