Switching out of Q2 - M10-P vs. M11-P

[bgm]

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I appreciate anyone's input on the following topic - I suspect a bits and pieces of my inquiry have been covered here before but I've been unable to cobble together a general feel for things after scouring previous posts.

A bit of background - I have been a longtime Fujifilm user (Xpro2, 35mm equivalent f2 lens), but scratched the itch for my first Leica about 6 months ago and picked up a Q2 Reporter. I enjoy a number of things about the Q2 but have definitively decided that the 28mm focal length just doesn't really fit for how I use the camera - yes there is in-camera cropping but for some reason I have just not really taken to that functionality. 90%+ of the time I shoot through the EVF and constantly staring at a digital rendering that close to my eye wreaks havoc after a while, and I miss slowness that comes with a semi/true rangefinder mentality (e.g., missed focuses, motion blur, blown highlights/shadows, etc. - the happy accidents). I think what I've realized most however is that the images produced with the 40MP sensor are almost always TOO detailed for my liking, if that can actually be a thing in Leica world. They look great on screen and Instagram but I derive most of my enjoyment, apart from the act of actually making the photograph, from printing, and the prints off the Q2 have a significantly more clinical feel and look to them. So I guess my question is - for those with an M10/M10-P, do you find that your images retain a bit of that softer, filmic look to them (both on screen and in print) by nature of the 24MP sensor, and for those with an M11/M11-P, are you able to effectively reproduce a softer, less detailed image by reducing the MP from 60 to 36 or 18 in-camera?

I am a hobbyist photographer and will occasionally do a shoot for a client or two, so the primary goal of mine is to find something that both has me reaching for the camera when I leave home and produces images that print well. Subject matter is primarily narrative in nature (street, client/brand storytelling, some portraiture), and a mix of black and white and color (although most all prints are black and white).

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[Derbyshire Man]

I think a lot of this comes from the lens rather than resolution. Most of the time I'm looking for a softer, reduced resolving power image such as this one. I've got a modern 50mm 1.4 FLE, 35mm FLE and 28mm F2 voigtlander but this is taken on a 1976 35mm pre aspherical at f1.4 and particularly in cities and portraits that's what I'm looking for. For landscape and colour the 1976 lens has its place but I prefer the other choices much of the time.

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Derbyshire Man]

Here's another with the same lens. Both shots at 60mp

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[bgm]

This is wonderful, thank you - I think that second shot really captures a lot of what I like to pick up in images when it comes to subtle details like the light illuminating the girls' hair and the softer edges of their shadows on the ground (wonderful shot btw!). I did a quick comparison of two images of mine that are somewhat similar - the first off the Fujifilm, the second off the Q2, both postprocessed to black and white with contrast emphasized. Upload limitation has likely restricted the overall quality but I think the difference is stark enough. I love both, but the softer tonality of the Fujifilm is what I've been missing with the Leica.

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[M8X2]

Not too long ago I did a similar switch - went from Q2 to M11. No regrets so far. I agree with Derbyshire Man that it is more about the lenses than the resolution. I chose an M11 over an M10 for two reasons: (i) I have no sentimental feelings for the 'traditional" Ms (bottom plate etc.), and (ii) there are some technical advancements that I appreciate: connectivity, better ISO, battery life, internal storage, and USB-C. That said, keep in mind that you can select 18 or 36 MP with an M11.

Enjoy the switch and happy lens hunting! (I chose 35 Summarit and 50 Lux for the beginning.)

Edited June 11, 2024 by M8X2

[hepcat]

I have an M10-P with which I have absolutely no complaints or issues.  I believe that the M10-P will become the M6 of digital bodies.  It is just right.

I also have a nice collection of 1950s and 1960s Canon LTM glass to go with my seven Canon LTM body collection.  While I have had a full stable of  Leica/Leitz M glass in the past, I just didn't feel the need to duplicate the system when I already had the exceptionally good Canon glass available.  So, I shoot my M10-P with adapted Canon LTM glass.  These photos were taken this weekend with the M10-P and the 1967 Canon 50mm f/1.4 (considered the Japanese Summilux.)   I think that the older glass renders quite nicely on the modern sensor; not too clinical, but not soft by any means.  I absolutely love the color the M10 sensor gives.  It's the closest I've found to the M9's CCD.

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[colint544]

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An easy thing to try - knock the clarity down a little in post. I shoot an M11, and run the files through Photoshop. I usually take the clarity down to somewhere between -20 and -25. It takes that digital edge off a touch, and makes the images easier on the eye.

Also, try reducing the saturation, and nudging the vibrance up a little. Works for me, might work for you - worth a try.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, bgm said:

This is wonderful, thank you - I think that second shot really captures a lot of what I like to pick up in images when it comes to subtle details like the light illuminating the girls' hair and the softer edges of their shadows on the ground (wonderful shot btw!). I did a quick comparison of two images of mine that are somewhat similar - the first off the Fujifilm, the second off the Q2, both postprocessed to black and white with contrast emphasized. Upload limitation has likely restricted the overall quality but I think the difference is stark enough. I love both, but the softer tonality of the Fujifilm is what I've been missing with the Leica.

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I like them both! The 28mm 1.4 on the Q2M is highly corrected, even my 35mm FLE has a bit of glow wide open. But you can't beat old glass! Crazily enough I regularly wander around with an M11P with the modern 35mm 1.4 FLE on it, running B&W mode and the 35mm pre-asph on the M11M. 

[lexffm]

Slowing down is definitely what is possible with an “M”. No autofocus and every now and then something goes wrong... I would recommend the M 11-P. But if you say most pictures are black and white, consider an M 11 monochrome. I hope you keep the Q2 as a second camera...

[bgm]

Really appreciate all the feedback here.

@M8X2, I, like you, don't have any sentimental attachment to things like the baseplate, and I quite like a lot of the modern day creature comforts of the M11 system, particulary what I've read about battery life and then USB-C charging. Seeing some of the example images here with older glass on the larger sensor gives me a bit more comfort that that softer look is achievable with the M11.

@colint544, I will give that a shot, although post processing is my least favorite part of this whole art form 😂 but I have found that the typical corrections I made on my FF images no longer really work for the Leica shots, and saturation needs to be pulled way back for things to start feeling 'right'.

@hepcat, I do quite like the idea of a slightly older sensor technology on the M10 particulary as it relates to color rendering. Despite most of my printed work being BW, most all of the other stuff I do (client, social media) is mostly color, which is actually why I am no longer considering a Monochrom body @lexffm (in a perfect world I'd get both, but I question whether my wife would let me back in the house).

Thanks again all. I sense that irrespective of the body choice it might be also time to start the hunt for older glass.

[hunglephotography]

I would share some of my experience from using number of leica M. I don’t own leica Q but my friend has a Q2 which i had some shot. I had m11 firstly but quickly sold it because of freeze issue which was too much back then. This is the story begins which i will tell you the situation now. 

I changed to M9p for sometimes, upgrade to M10p and absolutely loved it. I got a black m10p which is beautiful to hold and the colors are so clean out of it. The M11 Jpeg color is quite different compared to m10p. If you have heard of it, the magenta cast is quite noticeable and complained widely.

Comparing to the Q2, i like the 28mm a lots. It’s not hard to get used to, and you will understand why the focal length is being popular nowadays. But being a fixed focal length is a limitation and the enjoyment of exchanging the lens is hard to describe. Buying selling lenses is fun and profit, sometimes. And most importantly, the range finder experience is special and hard to find on any other cameras. Q2 doesn’t have it. 

I sold the m10p and bought hasselblad x2d. The color and IQ of the x2d is phenomenal. The WB is excellent and leica wb is no where near it. But leica m10 and m11 are very good too. It just needs more post process. Most importantly, the x2d is huge and soon i realize it doesn’t fit my needs. The experience shooting a rangefinder is hard to replace. 

Finally, i sold the x2d for a profit and funded all for a leica m11p. Why back to m11? Well, leica has been releasing new fw update and it seems fixed the freezing issues. Not all of it but the issue has been effectively minimized. M11 still has a better raw file which benefits the post processing a lots. Internal storage, long lasting battery, and luckily the m11p has no freeze issue at all. Now i found way to adjust the wb and tint to make the photo better corrected. After all, we need to learn along the way how to deal with the camera and adapt to the files of each camera. 

In conclusion, there is no wrong in choosing m10p or m11p. If you want a better IQ, color out of camera, quieter shutter sound, pick the m10p. If you want better raw file, have skill in post processing, internal storage, better battery, choose the m11p. The appearances are quite similar. M11p is a bit lighter but not significant. Both cameras can achieve vintage vibe with vintage lenses or post editing. 

Good luck and enjoy your new camera. 

[JoshuaR]

I also came to Leica through the Q2 from Fuji X cameras, and ultimately moved from the Q2 to the M system for the exact reason you cite: the ultra-modern super-sharp-and-detailed rendering of the Q2 wasn’t right for my (hobbyist) purposes. I rented an M10-P, tried it with a Voigtlander 35 Nokton, and immediately realized that I’d found the look I was after. I now have an M10-R, M10M, and a bunch of M lenses. Half of the lenses are quite modern, the other half lean toward “character.” I’m happy as a clam—as I should be, given the cost of the gear.

So I’d say: Yes, you’re on the right track. The thing to be wary of is that the search for ‘filmic’ lenses on the M system is endless, because there are so many options. You may find that current-generation offerings are ‘filmic’ enough for you, or you may want to go back to actual older lenses from the 1970s, for example. There’s a lot to explore.

As for M10 vs. M11, I ultimately decided to go with the M10 generation for two reasons: (1) the cost savings let me buy a lens or two, and (2) I can afford to replace an M10, and maybe even an M10-R, but can’t afford to replace an M11. But price sensitivity is different for everyone.

[bgm]

@JoshuaRothman this is super, super helpful. I'm cognizant that glass has a fair bit to do with it too, and in all likelihood the 28mm/1.7 on the Q2 is skewing the 1:1 comparison between the Q2/Xpro2 - but I do get the sense that the sensor is playing a pretty big role in the equation as well. I just did a quick side by side with both cameras in a higher contrast monochrom setting and the Leica is arguably a 'better' result in nearly every discernable category, but it lacks that etheral component that I really love with the Fuji. If I were just looking at my pictures on the phone/screen, I think the Q2 would be a great camera, but the printing is where things fall apart for me.

[M8X2]

The Q really seems to be a gateway drug. 

[EJS73]

I briefly 

7 hours ago, M8X2 said:

The Q really seems to be a gateway drug. 

Agree, and I think that's based on the form factor, build and controls, not so much the image quality? I went into the other direction, adding a Q3 to the M11 expecting some synergy, but found the images from the cameras a world apart - give me the warm, rich, and perhaps a degree less sharp M photos anytime. The only camera I've found that comes close to providing a similar pleasant look is Fuji X.

Edited June 13, 2024 by EJS73

[EJS73]

10 hours ago, bgm said:

@JoshuaRothman this is super, super helpful. I'm cognizant that glass has a fair bit to do with it too, and in all likelihood the 28mm/1.7 on the Q2 is skewing the 1:1 comparison between the Q2/Xpro2 - but I do get the sense that the sensor is playing a pretty big role in the equation as well. I just did a quick side by side with both cameras in a higher contrast monochrom setting and the Leica is arguably a 'better' result in nearly every discernable category, but it lacks that etheral component that I really love with the Fuji. If I were just looking at my pictures on the phone/screen, I think the Q2 would be a great camera, but the printing is where things fall apart for me.

Keep the XPro2! You'll regret letting it go even if you would decide to go all-in with the M. I've been there...

[bgm]

@EJS73 I'm definitely keeping the Xpro2 😀 Don't think I could ever part with that thing, some of my favorite shots of all time have come off that little thing

Edited June 13, 2024 by bgm
spelling mistake

[newtoleica]

You can process the Q2 files to be identical to the 10-P. I use both in my workflow. The only difference is that the Q2 files often need AI noise reduction applied if I'm shooting in low light.

Below Metro with Q2 in Osaka, Unbrellas in Kyoto with M10-P+24 summilux.

 

Processing

LR - usual adjustments to tones.contrast, exposure -plus monochrome, clarity up 30-40%, add film grain, slight vignette.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[bgm]

13 hours ago, newtoleica said:

You can process the Q2 files to be identical to the 10-P. I use both in my workflow. The only difference is that the Q2 files often need AI noise reduction applied if I'm shooting in low light.

Below Metro with Q2 in Osaka, Unbrellas in Kyoto with M10-P+24 summilux.

 

Processing

LR - usual adjustments to tones.contrast, exposure -plus monochrome, clarity up 30-40%, add film grain, slight vignette.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This is great, appreciate it. Love both