Panasonic SR1 and TL APS-C lenses

[o2mpx]

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Picked up a used SR-1 to use with Leica 24-90/16-35mm zooms after selling the SL2, the combined weight is getting to be a strain more and more. Since landscapes are the main focus, if APS-C lenses were used, such as the TL series, how much resolution detail would be reduced? Not sure if the math is correct, so 47/1.5/1.5=20mp?

Or would the native 40mp APS-C sensor and lens from Fuji yield higher resolution details with 40mp being available vs the 20mp cropped from full frame above?

 

 

[Babylonia]

< English PDF manual >     Page  21  -  general information related to Leica APS-C lenses

Page  83

The image size varies depending on the [Aspect Ratio] or the lens used.
When an APS-C lens is used, the image area switches to the one for APS-C, thereby narrowing the angle of view.

        [2:3]    [L] (20M) 5504 x 3664        Maximum size as for APS-C is  20 Mp

So a native 40 Mp APS-C sensor from Fuji yield higher resolution.
But keep in mind pixel pitch of such a Fuji camera image sensor is much more small.
By that much more high demanding quality as for lenses are needed to keep track.
Also diffraction limits shall be starting at more wide aperture values.
Image noise levels / dynamic range?  There always shall be some disadvantages.

Page  210

You still can use High resolution mode of the camera.
Even in case of using a more small APS-C used area, by that mode you are using approximately 80 Mp resolution images as for S1R.

But also the Fuji camera do have a High resolution mode, giving 160 Mp resolution images.

With all these possibilities, it always shall be a challenge in choosing the right equipment that suits your needs.
Over the years boundaries will be continued to be pushed further and further.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Babylonia

[Ivar B]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:07 PM, o2mpx said:

Picked up a used SR-1 to use with Leica 24-90/16-35mm zooms after selling the SL2, the combined weight is getting to be a strain more and more. Since landscapes are the main focus, if APS-C lenses were used, such as the TL series, how much resolution detail would be reduced? Not sure if the math is correct, so 47/1.5/1.5=20mp?

Or would the native 40mp APS-C sensor and lens from Fuji yield higher resolution details with 40mp being available vs the 20mp cropped from full frame above?

 

I think you will find that there is still more than enough resolution. I used my S1R with APS-C lenses and results are excellent. 

By the way, may I ask why you sold the SL2 and migrated to S1R?

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ivar B

[o2mpx]

@Ivar B thanks for your comment. After selling the SL2 in anticipation for the SL3(whenever it comes), picked up a used S1r for 1/3 of what the SL2 sold for so the 16-35/24-90 zooms wouldn’t sit idle. Surprisingly, found the feel in hand, handling etc to be better than the SL2; not as sure now needing to get the SL3. 

Definitely not a fan of the S1r menus but after initial settings, not likely needing to dig into it again. Now thinking perhaps using the TL zooms to further save weight but concerned the crop factor might give up much in resolution, and perhaps the 40mp sensor on new Fujis might be a good way to preserve and get the weight savings. 

[Babylonia]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb o2mpx:

Now thinking perhaps using the TL zooms to further save weight but concerned the crop factor might give up much in resolution, and perhaps the 40mp sensor on new Fujis might be a good way to preserve and get the weight savings. 

Investing into APS-C / TL zooms just to save weight & size, onto a full frame camera, IMO are the wrong choices.  „Neither meat nor fish“.
As you don’t use the full potential of the camera’s resolution. (And carrying the bulky size & weight of the camera still with you).

IMO it seems more logical to switch to a complete APS-C system with a higher basic resolution such as Fuji.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Babylonia

[Ivar B]

22 hours ago, o2mpx said:

@Ivar B thanks for your comment. After selling the SL2 in anticipation for the SL3(whenever it comes), picked up a used S1r for 1/3 of what the SL2 sold for so the 16-35/24-90 zooms wouldn’t sit idle. Surprisingly, found the feel in hand, handling etc to be better than the SL2; not as sure now needing to get the SL3. 

Definitely not a fan of the S1r menus but after initial settings, not likely needing to dig into it again. Now thinking perhaps using the TL zooms to further save weight but concerned the crop factor might give up much in resolution, and perhaps the 40mp sensor on new Fujis might be a good way to preserve and get the weight savings. 

Interesting observations. I chose the S1R as I found it difficult to justity the massive price difference. The SL2 is more elegant and the menu better, but the S1R surely delivers. 

[BernardC]

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3 hours ago, Babylonia said:

Investing into APS-C / TL zooms just to save weight & size, onto a full frame camera, IMO are the wrong choices.  „Neither meat nor fish“.
As you don’t use the full potential of the camera’s resolution. (And carrying the bulky size & weight of the camera still with you).

I agree. Panasonic's 20-60 is a good light zoom, or you can use a small prime. That way you get to use the full sensor. 

Buying full frame in order to shoot APS-C doesn't make much sense, unless you mainly shoot video. 

[o2mpx]

Appreciate all the insights.

Historically, the style of landscape shooting has been 85% shot within the 16-35mm range with cropping to final image. As age sets in, not counting the SL2 or S1r body, carrying and changing heavy/bulky lenses such as the 16-35 and 24-90 with combined lens weight of 4lb15.7oz do present a challenge over a 4-6 hr trek. The benefit here is max native resolution, broad range coverage despite 1-2% of the time, might have wished for something longer than 90mm.

In contrast, the TL zooms of 11-23/18-56 combined weight 1lb9oz for both, is roughly 70% lighter, providing 20mp, and less if cropping to final image is the compromise.

In comparison, Fuji's 10-24/16-55 combined would weigh 2lb3oz, saving 56% of the FF lenses, clearly with different look/performance images, at 40mp.

If choice rests on getting a Fuji setup, likely the Leica FF zooms should go as over the last 2 trips with the S1r, the TL zooms ended up in the bag once the weight factor came into consideration. 

The other option similar to point suggested by @BernardC, pair the S1r with 3rd party lighter FF zooms such as Panasonic or the Sigma DG/DN series; with most shots at F8, perhaps the tradeoff going to 3rd party lenses vs Leica FF is acceptable without needing to add Fuji into the options.

Edited November 26, 2023 by o2mpx

[Babylonia]

It always is a challenge and "balance" to find out the best options.
Quality wise the best are  Leica 16-35 and 24-90 lenses.  (If you can afford).
But lugging around with the bulky size/weight can be a nightmare.
So maybe you stop those trips, (or at least less)?  Making NO pictures as a result.

v.s.  3rd party lenses.  Quality wise (and pixel peeping wise) maybe just a little lower in standard.
But at least more comfortable in taking it with you, and by that still making pictures.

(E.g. Lumix 16-35mm F 4.0  the weight is 500 grams / 17.6 oz    -    Sigma 28-70mm F2.8 DG DN | Contemporary   weight is 470 grams / 16.6 oz

[o2mpx]

To avoid starting a new system like Fuji, giving the 3rd party FF route a try. Purchased the Sigma 28-70mm zoom to travel with the 16-35mm Leica zoom with the S1r for Xmas market trip next month. If results are good, will consider adding and pair with the Sigma 16-28mm zoom. 
 

Understand these are not the higher quality Art series zooms; but focus is on weight and bulk reduction, hopefully, with minimal tradeoffs. 

[Babylonia]

A nice light weight couple.

Here two reviews by Crisopher Frost found at YouTube:
Excellent results over the entire image area when using a bit more closed apertures.
Sigma 16-28mm f/2.8 DG DN "C"
Sigma 28-70mm f/2.8 DG DN "C"

User reviews by Josh Cameron (however using 24 Mp Panasonic S5  /  S5 II ).
Sigma 16-28mm f/2.8 DG DN "C"
Sigma 28-70mm f/2.8 DG DN "C"

I am curious about your findings with these lenses

Edited November 28, 2023 by Babylonia

[AdjusterBrett]

I'm no pro, however...

TL2 with a couple super sharp Sigs (DC DN) 16, 65, then buy the 105/2.8 macro and the 100-400 (effective reach of 150-450).  The entire bag of items will weigh less than your 24-90.  You get 24mp in an APS-C - with effective 16mm, 65mm, 160ish, and 150-450.  If you are more 'local' landscape (shorter range - think architecture) then go with the 10-18, 18-50 - and you are out the door with stuff you could put in your pockets.

I have the SL and the S1, I have several Fuji's as well.  Buying anything along the lines of the S1 or SL line and mentioning the 24-90 - and then mentioning 'weight reduction' - its an oxymoron...

If you go with a used TL2 (which would be so much faster than using an S1 or SL once you are used to the interface which should take about less than a day) - you will get effectively 24 LEICA megapixels at APS-C...   Your crop of the SL2 or S1R is 1.5 factor or about 31 megapixels.  Unless you are cropping further, or you are blowing up prints - you won't see too much difference in my opinion.  I hear tale that the 11-23 TL lens is stellar - but considering the 10-18 and the 18-50 (both faster) can be had combined for less than the cost of a used 11-23 - might be worth a try.  If you have the 24-90 and the 16-35 in the Leica variant - then the activity of PRYING loose bills from the wallet is NOT an issue - HOWEVER - my solution is less than 1800 out the door - (TL2/10-18,18-50) and could be had tomorrow - its an easy thing to try...  Total weight on those three might be less than your 16-35...  But still gives you 24mp, a range of 10-50 at a constant 2.8...

I really believe my S1 was probably one of the greatest bodies ever made - it still outshines most for performance, defiantly video, and weight (LOL)...   That said - if I'm shooting vintage it's the SL or the TL2 all day and twice on Sundays.

Side note - if you do a tripod, and you haven't tried the multishot (I do on the S1) - its pretty cool - but if you have the time - simply stich a panoramic - as in most landscape photos - if you are peeping - then you are missing the point...

Just my $0.02 from the cheap seats...

[o2mpx]

@AdjusterBrett, thanks for the recommendations. For lightweight carry, have assembled a CL kit with the 3 Leica zooms. Not a comprehensive solution given no ibis, ape-c and lower resolution, but can’t beat the weight and bulk. 

Added the lightest FF L mount body with ibis(Sigma fp-L lighter but no ibis and dvf), Panasonic S5ii, to use with the 16-35/24-90 Leica zooms, and occasionally M mount lenses, albeit still at 24mp. 

Longer term, will see how used SL3 prices look like in time and what Panasonic will do if there’s a S1rii coming. 

[AdjusterBrett]

Yeah - for what I find myself doing - the low light of the lower res sensor won out, but the Panasonics are such a bang for the buck (S1 line).  I wanted to replace it with the SL2S - but aside from the beating heart of a Leica - it offered almost nothing new over the S1 - and for vintage - I felt it came in second to the SL in the handling category.  My problem is lenses not bodies - and I'm pretty good at twisting myself up in knots trying to figure it out - so if I was able to offer up something of value - MY PLEASURE - as it may NOT be an election year rumor that I ramble and head off on tangents....    Again, just my $0.02 from the cheap seats.