What I feel upset with SL-2

[Paco Rosso]

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-The battery... when it rechs about 50% of charge you cannot shoot video neither burst.... ¿How many batteries I need?

-The battery... I cannot carry the camera the time I usually need in the street, about 6, 8 hours. Two batteries are emptys in about 3, 4 hours...

-The lag with the shutter. First to say this is the quickest mirror less I have used.... mirrorless, but if I compare with my other reflex camera I lost many of the moments I need to register (Yes, I am very fussy with this things) so I have learned to shoot with this camera... out of my eye, shooting with the screen but with both eyes open to see the scene with one eye and the screen with the other. But I wonder ¿Really a need to do this when I can shoot more "in time" with my reflex? And with this tech I do not have total control of the framing (Explanation: I shoot dance. The top moment in the ballerina movement is about some miliseconds. I do not shoot poses, I shoot movements. If you hear my camera when shooting the shutter sounds at the beat of the music. I cannot shoot with the leica at the beat of the music.

Due to this: I have just purchased a second D850 body.

(And please, don't tellme I test sony, it is a mirrorless yet).

 

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[LocalHero1953]

I shoot dance also, with the SL2-S. I am limited by my ability to predict the movement and my reaction times, not by shutter lag. I don't find lag a problem, except in low light. Why not borrow a SL2-S and see if it helps? A lower res sensor may make for faster processing and less lag.

(I know exactly what you mean about shooting in time with the music!)

[sebben]

It’s what it is I’m afraid.

The mirrorless bandwagon is steered by amateurs as the  professional cameras keep disappearing.  

Edited July 23, 2023 by sebben

[Photoworks]

Is this a serious question?

I have been shooting ballet for 20 years, from film to digital, and every camera has a different shutter delay. one you learn it you are going with the music.

If you like the Nikon why don't you shoot that?

My biggest complaint is not getting all the dancers in the same position when they are jumping together. I suppose no camera is going to fix that.

[tangosix]

I have shot the d850 and nikons.  I think that I get what you are trying to say.  The Nikon can be more accurate and faster.  However, the Leica does demand more discipline, and the Leica results are far superior.  You will have to master that Leica menu and control on the fly.  This was not easy for me, but now I love it and can react so much more quickly in man situations. 

Who wants to spend hours fixing Nikon colors?  Not me. 

Leica is a set of tools that produces the results I find superior. 

[Stuart Richardson]

4 hours ago, sebben said:

It’s what it is I’m afraid.

The mirrorless bandwagon is steered by amateurs as the  professional cameras keep disappearing.  

I think it is steered by the need to find profit in a shrinking industry, more than anything. A lot easier to make a camera without a mirror, and calibrating a mirror and slr lens to focus perfectly at 50+mp is no small task. Mirrorless and sensor based focus and a live readout are a lot more efficient in this way…give it a bunch of tech and you wind up with a camera in the same price bracket as the DSLRs, but which tend to offer more features and more profit for the companies. 

[BernardC]

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17 hours ago, Paco Rosso said:

The lag with the shutter. First to say this is the quickest mirror less I have used.... mirrorless, but if I compare with my other reflex camera I lost many of the moments I need to register (Yes, I am very fussy with this things) so I have learned to shoot with this camera... out of my eye, shooting with the screen but with both eyes open to see the scene with one eye and the screen with the other.

I found that too when I first got the SL. As you mention, Leica's implementation is the best yet, but still not as good as most direct-viewing cameras.

I got used to it, to a certain extent, but the fundamental problem is that the image you see is a few frames behind real life. It's like watching a film where the sound sync is off, some people can't stand it, and others don't notice.

It's not as easy to adjust to as an SLR. In that case you see things at the right time, and the sound of the shutter tells you when the image was taken. For a mirrorless, the shutter sound is out-of-time with what you see.

I can only offer sympathy. Your internal timing will get better with practice, but it will never be as good as it would be with an SLR (or a Leica M, which has an extremely short shutter delay). Your solution (keeping the other eye open) works well, I've done that for important shots. It's the modern equivalent of the "sports finder," which I used on Hasselblad (pre-focus, mirror up, follow the action through a wire frame).

[Jean-Michel]

If you want to minimize shutter lag, then use a camera with a leaf shutter.

An slr or dslr will need to move the mirror out of the way and that does take a rather infinitesimal but real amount of time. A mirrorless camera does have to close the shutter first and reopen it for the exposure, and that too takes a little bit of time — that’s what it is, get used to it. As for the two eyes open technique, it really does not work, even with an M3 with its .91 magnification, which is as close to direct viewing as it gets. With any other magnification you just get confused by the difference in what you see.  

[BernardC]

I've found that the main issue isn't the shutter lag (the time between the moment when you press the shutter button and the moment when exposure starts), it is the EVF lag; you are seeing action that happened a fraction of a second earlier.

I can learn to compensate for (reasonable) shutter lag within a few clicks. That's because I can hear when the shutter opens and see what's happening at the same time. It's fundamentally the same as a batter starting their swing before the ball reaches them, we humans are good at estimating that type of thing.

However, things are different with an EVF: I hear the shutter open, but what I see is a few frames behind, so it seems like the shutter fired earlier than expected.

I think that some cameras have a "time travel" mode in which the camera continuously stores frames into a buffer, and then saves the last 5 or 10 when you press the shutter. It's an inelegant solution, but I'm sure that sports photographers find it useful.

[dewittehd]

18 hours ago, tangosix said:

I have shot the d850 and nikons.  I think that I get what you are trying to say.  The Nikon can be more accurate and faster.  However, the Leica does demand more discipline, and the Leica results are far superior.  You will have to master that Leica menu and control on the fly.  This was not easy for me, but now I love it and can react so much more quickly in man situations. 

Who wants to spend hours fixing Nikon colors?  Not me. 

Leica is a set of tools that produces the results I find superior. 

fixing colours? You will have to master that............... I shoot three Nikons and my average correction time is around 45 seconds. If you need hours then there is definitely something wrong with your setup

[Paco Rosso]

8 hours ago, BernardC said:

I got used to it, to a certain extent, but the fundamental problem is that the image you see is a few frames behind real life. It's like watching a film where the sound sync is off, some people can't stand it, and others don't notice.

Yes. When in 60 frames per second the delay is 16,67 ms and at 120 fps is 8,33. So we see in the visor something that happened in the past.

 

[Paco Rosso]

22 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Is this a serious question?

I have been shooting ballet for 20 years, from film to digital, and every camera has a different shutter delay. one you learn it you are going with the music.

If you like the Nikon why don't you shoot that?

My biggest complaint is not getting all the dancers in the same position when they are jumping together. I suppose no camera is going to fix that.

¿What camera do you use? ¿A mirrorles?

[Paco Rosso]

21 hours ago, tangosix said:

I have shot the d850 and nikons.  I think that I get what you are trying to say.  The Nikon can be more accurate and faster.  However, the Leica does demand more discipline, and the Leica results are far superior.  You will have to master that Leica menu and control on the fly.  This was not easy for me, but now I love it and can react so much more quickly in man situations. 

Who wants to spend hours fixing Nikon colors?  Not me. 

Leica is a set of tools that produces the results I find superior. 

I will keep working with leica, the image is soooo far superior to other cameras, and almost do not need to fix colors. But... the delay... the dance with the camera... That0s whiy I have another D850 body.

 

[Paco Rosso]

4 hours ago, Jean-Michel said:

If you want to minimize shutter lag, then use a camera with a leaf shutter.

An slr or dslr will need to move the mirror out of the way and that does take a rather infinitesimal but real amount of time. A mirrorless camera does have to close the shutter first and reopen it for the exposure, and that too takes a little bit of time — that’s what it is, get used to it. As for the two eyes open technique, it really does not work, even with an M3 with its .91 magnification, which is as close to direct viewing as it gets. With any other magnification you just get confused by the difference in what you see.  

First I thought that a mirrorless should be more quicker than a mirrorless but it is not. The electronic shutter is always slower than an electromecanic and, the difference beetween what you see in that TV screen wich is the visor and what is happening in front of the camera is the main issue. You see through the screen something wich happened earlier than you saw it.

 

[tangosix]

2 hours ago, Paco Rosso said:

I will keep working with leica, the image is soooo far superior to other cameras, and almost do not need to fix colors. But... the delay... the dance with the camera... That0s whiy I have another D850 body.

 

It is a journey.  I have shot 7 weddings recently, two with the nikon and leica and then the last five with only the leica sl2s.  I understand.  I hear my customers demanding more and I decided to hire a second shooter and he uses the nikon for ... every ... single.. second captured.   Yes, it works for some images.  But, the images I have printed have all been from the Leica.  These customers select those for the wall. 

For me the Leica is more rewarding and earns me more money in the end.  Best of luck with your journey. 

 

 

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, Paco Rosso said:

Yes. When in 60 frames per second the delay is 16,67 ms and at 120 fps is 8,33. So we see in the visor something that happened in the past.

 

Having a single frame of delay is the best case. Lots of cameras are worse than that.

[Ken Abrahams]

As a relatively new SL2/Sl2SA shooter I find this lagging predicament a terrible elevation. Recently looking at my playback I found missing images and wasn't sure how that happened. The camera was "awake" and the exposure taken in the immediacy that a decisive moment allows but the frame was missing. This is terrible and I am disappointed that a decisive moment now has to enlist a work around. Shocked.  

[WvE]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:45 PM, Paco Rosso said:

I will keep working with leica, the image is soooo far superior to other cameras, and almost do not need to fix colors. But... the delay... the dance with the camera... That0s whiy I have another D850 body.

Curious to see the evidence showing that the Leica image is soo superior to that of Nikon, or any other camera for that matter.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

As a relatively new SL2/Sl2SA shooter I find this lagging predicament a terrible elevation. Recently looking at my playback I found missing images and wasn't sure how that happened. The camera was "awake" and the exposure taken in the immediacy that a decisive moment allows but the frame was missing. This is terrible and I am disappointed that a decisive moment now has to enlist a work around. Shocked.  

It's a limitation inherent to mirrorless, but then again all camera types have their limitations. It will improve with higher refresh rates, but there's a hard limitation: the camera can't display a frame until after it has been captured, and the speed of that is limited by shutter speed. If you are shooting at 1/30, you can't be less than 1/30 behind, and that's a delay that many people will notice (try watching a film where the soundtrack is off by one frame). Maybe some future tech will refresh the EVF while the frame is still being captured.

It's not just an issue with sports and fast action. I find that I get a lot more blink shots in portrait sessions. My workaround, when I have a model that blinks a lot, is to shoot two shots in quick succession.

[frame-it]

3 hours ago, WvE said:

Curious to see the evidence showing that the Leica image is soo superior to that of Nikon, or any other camera for that matter.

i doubt there is any evidence to support that, do a canon+nikon+leica blind test i bet almost nobody could make out the difference