Roland Zwiers Posted August 15, 2023 Author Share #481 Posted August 15, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Alan, So in the delivery book 'Kamera' of 1925 we must be looking out for Herr Frits Vith, Wetzlar. Unfortunately, I only have the second edition of the Leica Handbuch of summer 1932. On the other hand, this 1932 edition already mentions the new carton based Agfa cassette (Agfa-Leica-Patrone) that I discussed earlier. Fritz Vith mentions that this cassette greatly simplifies the loading of the camera with film. He also mentions that the casstte is for single use; the procedure for removing the film from the cassette amounts to tearing up the cassette. Roland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 15, 2023 Posted August 15, 2023 Hi Roland Zwiers, Take a look here 100 years Null-Serie. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pgk Posted August 16, 2023 Share #482 Posted August 16, 2023 On 8/15/2023 at 1:39 PM, nitroplait said: Or it is something as simple as a misprint in the 1941 handbook or someone misremembering 15 years later. Not unlikely- especially if other things don’t add up. As William will confirm, research into photographic history is subject to all sorts of vagaries especially when things were often poorly documented at the time they took placebecause those involved were too busy producing equipment to be bothered making detailed records of how and when they made it. William and I have been researching into the photographic lenses of the Grubbs of Dublin and given a lack of complete documentation have had to use what is available. This has often meant filling in gaps based on the information which still exists and doing so is a big risk because when a new document comes to light it can throw all the carefully surmised ideas, which fit all the previously known facts, out completely. Research is only as good as the known information allows it to be. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 17, 2023 Share #483 Posted August 17, 2023 21 hours ago, pgk said: As William will confirm, research into photographic history is subject to all sorts of vagaries especially when things were often poorly documented at the time they took placebecause those involved were too busy producing equipment to be bothered making detailed records of how and when they made it. William and I have been researching into the photographic lenses of the Grubbs of Dublin and given a lack of complete documentation have had to use what is available. This has often meant filling in gaps based on the information which still exists and doing so is a big risk because when a new document comes to light it can throw all the carefully surmised ideas, which fit all the previously known facts, out completely. Research is only as good as the known information allows it to be. Thanks Paul. The only thing I would add is the fact that we have come across an original period note book with a production record for Grubb lenses in the 1860s and 1870s which was filled up in Dublin and somehow found its way to Newcastle. For example, I own Lens No 2591, a D Type, listed here as having been finished on May 21st 1866, earlier than Leica production records by a good 50 or 60 years. The handwriting is that of Thomas Grubb, the owner of the business. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My latest project involves a darkroom which was used between 1888 and 1922 where we have the photographer's notebooks, see extract from 1896 below, his developed plates, negative and positive , his chemicals and his complete darkroom, including a copying/enlarging easel that appears in photos from the 1890s and his cameras and lenses etc, etc. The other day just before I gave a talk about the darkroom to a mixed group (experts and non experts), we discovered that he had written his chemical formulae in a dark corner of the darkroom (second photo) in the 1890s. I am going to continue the research and do a research Zoom for PCCGB where there will be a top expert audience to throw in advice. We have been able to prove some things so far and unravel some mysteries about the images, but we have a long way to go . In one series we have unravelled a mystery about images of a mother and baby from 1915 and we have gone through plates and prints and masking and touching up of the plates to do this. I am lucky to have had the assistance of a great archivist at the archive where the images are kept. I love doing this kind of research in places where nobody has done such research before. The main thing is to get cross corroboration, such as the lens in the first item above and the photographs in the photographer's notebook above. When we are in the Leica Archive we should be looking first of all for things that confirm what we already know. I am sure that Roland would love to find notebooks where Barnack and Leitz noted the images which they had taken with the Ur Leica. William Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My latest project involves a darkroom which was used between 1888 and 1922 where we have the photographer's notebooks, see extract from 1896 below, his developed plates, negative and positive , his chemicals and his complete darkroom, including a copying/enlarging easel that appears in photos from the 1890s and his cameras and lenses etc, etc. The other day just before I gave a talk about the darkroom to a mixed group (experts and non experts), we discovered that he had written his chemical formulae in a dark corner of the darkroom (second photo) in the 1890s. I am going to continue the research and do a research Zoom for PCCGB where there will be a top expert audience to throw in advice. We have been able to prove some things so far and unravel some mysteries about the images, but we have a long way to go . In one series we have unravelled a mystery about images of a mother and baby from 1915 and we have gone through plates and prints and masking and touching up of the plates to do this. I am lucky to have had the assistance of a great archivist at the archive where the images are kept. I love doing this kind of research in places where nobody has done such research before. The main thing is to get cross corroboration, such as the lens in the first item above and the photographs in the photographer's notebook above. When we are in the Leica Archive we should be looking first of all for things that confirm what we already know. I am sure that Roland would love to find notebooks where Barnack and Leitz noted the images which they had taken with the Ur Leica. William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4837560'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 18, 2023 Author Share #484 Posted August 18, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William, Look at this 19th century British handwriting style. I read: Lenses as manufactured German handwriting styles (esp. the Sütterlin script) are more difficult to read. But Thomas Grubb and Oskar Barnack are not miles apart. Roland 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William, Look at this 19th century British handwriting style. I read: Lenses as manufactured German handwriting styles (esp. the Sütterlin script) are more difficult to read. But Thomas Grubb and Oskar Barnack are not miles apart. Roland ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4837811'>More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted August 18, 2023 Share #485 Posted August 18, 2023 8 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William, Look at this 19th century British handwriting style. I read: Lenses as manufactured German handwriting styles (esp. the Sütterlin script) are more difficult to read. But Thomas Grubb and Oskar Barnack are not miles apart. Roland Roland, could not agree more. This handwriting is beautiful, but the entries in the Leitz records are much more difficult to read, and a lot of that depends on the writer. I have a very hard time reading Barnack's notes. For the production records, once you get used to the writing style, it is much better. Also, there are the abbreviations used for the shipping destinations. Then, as the war took its toll on the workers at the factory, the handwriting became much more difficult to read again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 18, 2023 Author Share #486 Posted August 18, 2023 Bill, After a lot of study I can finally read most of Oskar Barnack's handwriting in his 1913-1914 work notes (Werkstattbuch). I am about to share this information as it relates to the relationships between: the MikroKino infrastructure (1913-1914) the Mechau projector (1911-1913) the panorama camera and accessories (1911-1914) the movie camera and infrastructure (1912-1914) M875 (1912) the electrical heating table (1913-1914) the 'Photo Kamera' (1913) and the Ur-Leica (1914). An earlier analysis centered on the external environment, the first miniature revolution that started in the 1890s. As explained before, Oskar Barnack made good use of the features of cameras that had come on the market up to 1912 or so, including the 1900 Film Palmos, the 1906 Minigraph and the 1912 Vestpocket Kodak. He combined features of these cameras so as to create something new, something that had not existed before. But still something that rested on a new combination of already existing ideas, in the spirit of Schumpeter. The second message is that the Ur-Leica was not Oskar Barnack's private 'Liliput' project at Leitz either.Also at Leitz Oskar Barnack was not working in a vacuum. When one looks systematically at his work notes of 1911-1914 then one can infer how the one 35mm product relates to another. Unfortunately, I have other pressing things to do now. So I need more time to share this analysis in more detail. Roland 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 19, 2023 Share #487 Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) On 8/18/2023 at 7:42 AM, Roland Zwiers said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William, Look at this 19th century British handwriting style. I read: Lenses as manufactured German handwriting styles (esp. the Sütterlin script) are more difficult to read. But Thomas Grubb and Oskar Barnack are not miles apart. Roland Particularly as regards the use of the helicoid. From our mutual friend John Wade in this week's Amateur Photographer magazine. This is just the first page of a long article. Anything to disagree with in the first paragraph? He attributes the universal 24x36 mm to Barnack. John should be on your PCCGB research Zoom next weekend. I will be doing the next PCCGB research Zoom after yours, but not about Leicas. William Edited August 19, 2023 by willeica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 19, 2023 Share #488 Posted August 19, 2023 22 hours ago, derleicaman said: Roland, could not agree more. This handwriting is beautiful, but the entries in the Leitz records are much more difficult to read, and a lot of that depends on the writer. I have a very hard time reading Barnack's notes. For the production records, once you get used to the writing style, it is much better. Also, there are the abbreviations used for the shipping destinations. Then, as the war took its toll on the workers at the factory, the handwriting became much more difficult to read again. Bill, this man also wrote his name on tickets for his Dublin observatory in the 1850s. I have seen a print of Trinity College Dublin which Grubb entered for the 1857 exhibition of the London Photographic Society where he wrote on the back that the railings in front of the college are in a curve. He also described the angle of view of his lens. All of this was written while the patent for his Aplanatic design was under consideration. He claimed that his lens would reduce distortions which would seem to have been the basis for the 'railings in a curve' comment. Finally, I have handled Mr Grubb's own geometry set from that era. It would be nice to have handled the sets of Barnack or Berek. Have you seen them? Much as I love Leica, the local stuff here in Ireland is much more meaningful to me. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #489 Posted August 27, 2023 On 8/19/2023 at 3:15 PM, willeica said: Particularly as regards the use of the helicoid. From our mutual friend John Wade in this week's Amateur Photographer magazine. This is just the first page of a long article. Anything to disagree with in the first paragraph? He attributes the universal 24x36 mm to Barnack. John should be on your PCCGB research Zoom next weekend. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I will be doing the next PCCGB research Zoom after yours, but not about Leicas. William Anything to disagree with in the first paragraph? "Oskar Barnack originally joined the Leitz company to develop a top-quality cine camera" William, I agree with everything in the first paragraph by John Wade. But I hesitate with the quoted sentence. This will open up a completely new topic for discussion! My first hesitation is the implied link between the Oskar Barnack cine camera and the Mechau film projector. This link is assumed in Leica literature: Van Hasbroeck (1987) and Ulf Richter (2009). But when I put the 1911-1914 work notes of Oskar Barnack in chronological order, then the Mechau projector is finished before the cine camera is tested succesfully. I will come back to this later. My second hesitation has to do with 'top-quality cine camera'. Of course, the all-metal cine camera was top-quality. But was it also state-of-the-art? As far as I know in 1911-1914 a state-of-the-art cine camera had a built-in facility to mark the filmstrip. So before shooting a scene the moviemaker would make two markings, one at the beginning and one at the end of a test strip. Before development of the film one could feel where the filmstrip was marked. This filmstrip = test strip was cut out and developed so as to have information on correct exposure. In this way the proper film reel could have an adapted development that compensated for over- or underexposure. As far as I can find in Leica literature, Oskar Barnacks cine camera did not have this state-of-the-art facility. This may be due to patent rights on the German market. The said lacking facility may even have inspired Oskar Barnack to develop M875. In combination: the Oskar Barnack cine camera and M875 could even be sold as an improvement! Simply because M875 allowed for test development of the filmstrip on location! As I said, this is a big subject. I can make more contributions on this later. First I would like to share my presentation for todays research meeting. After all, that was the reason for starting this posting in the first place! Roland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #490 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844584'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #491 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844585'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #492 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844586'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #493 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844587'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #494 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844589'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #495 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844591'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #496 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844593'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #497 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844594'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #498 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844595'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #499 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844596'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share #500 Posted August 27, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378437-100-years-null-serie/?do=findComment&comment=4844597'>More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now