Think Twice About Using Leica Service

[guywalder]

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I'm just trying to add some balance.

 

hmm, so should I start posting in the 'I love my XYZ' posts to the effect that I cant stand said XZY?

 

more seriously, I dont think Leica have much financial risk from the likes of Roger, since the M8 is the only game in town people who are disapointed have no other option, and even for those (few I suspect) who want to get rid of their camera Leica have already made their sale. I think the financial litmus test will be when the next model comes out, which I expect to succeed incidentally..

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[andybarton]

FWIW, I was in my dealer at lunchtime. He's not only sold out of M8s, but of all the examples he's sold, he hasn't had a single complaint.

 

Steve is right. If the majority of M8s were basket-cases, as postulated here, Leica would have gone bankrupt already. Their results will, indeed, be very interesting.

[barjohn]

After looking at Leica's financial statements for FY07 and first quarter FY08 (included below), Leica is neither that small a company ($205 Million Company with 993 employees FY07) nor doing that poorly (see first quarter results below).

 

Thus the apologists for Leica's poor performance in producing decent firmware or good service are clearly missing the mark. With an expenditure of $13.2 Million in R&D last FY it takes gross incompetence not to have fixed the firmware completely in one year. Assuming some significant portion was spent on the M8, they must have engineers that are grossly incompetent in software. This isn't a little 10 man company struggling against the giants, it is a 1,000 man company (about the size of our organization where I work) and I can assure you we produce a heck of a lot more.

 

First Quarter Results:

 

Interim report June 30, 2007

First quarter fiscal 2007/2008

Leica Camera Group has closed the first quarter of fiscal 2007/2008 with sales amounting to

EUR 43,560,00 (previous year EUR 28,037,000). The strong increase is a result of the success

of the digital compact cameras and the digital rangefinder camera LEICA M8 in particular.

The Group result for the period under review has improved by EUR 4,671,000 as compared to

the same date in the previous year. The Group net income amounts to EUR 4,168,000 (previous

year EUR –503,000). The improved result arises basically from an increase in sales.

In the first quarter of fiscal 2007/2008 research expenditures amounting to EUR 3,451,000

(previous year EUR 1,733,000) have accrued. Research expenditures and investments will

increase to accrue in the remaining quarters.

The Leica Camera Group continues to strive for a slightly positive operative result in fiscal

2007/2008 and for further improved results in the time afterwards. However, a condition for

this is, that especially the reorientation of the product portfolio and of the restructuring concept

will be continued as planned.

Total assets for the period under review have increased by 23.1 % as compared to the same

date in the previous year, resulting mainly from an increase in inventory and liquid funds on the

assets side through the more extensive business activity. On the liabilities side the other longterm

and short-term liabilities have increased through the raising of a loan amounting to EUR

20,000,000 in October 2006. The equity ratio remains almost unchanged as compared to the

previous year.

Due to the aforementioned reorientation the number of employees in the Group has risen from

929 to 962.

[glenerrolrd]

Russell, M8 users split into two types, the majority that have had no problems, and the minority that have had problems. It's human nature that people who have had problems are more vocal than those who have not.

Steve Please support you comment that most buyers have had no problems and that only individuals that have had problems complain. My evidence is of course only my experience but unless I am the unluckiest person out there ..its been pretty bad. I have sent in 8 lens for 6 bit coding and other minor adjustments . All of these lens were either new or I had had several years of experience with in a film environment. Because I have good selection of lenses I sent them in batches when I could spare them. In each case I created an individual letter of instructions that itemized the service request and asked that along with the 6 bit coding that the focus tests be performed. The first batch included a 21,24 and 28 . The 24 and 28 came back in great shape . The 21 back focused so far I thought the lens was damaged . It was obvious that no one had performed any sort of focus test . This was returned to Solms and returned properly repaired. ( we lost a month awaiting confirmation of payment..the lens was under warrenty and the card was included with the lens). Next batch two 35 s a new 35 1.4 and an older summicron. Both returned in 6 weeks in fine working order. Next batch..the noctilux and the 90 summicron. The 90 had a loose front retaining ring than unscrews with the filter..itemized on my request..returned in 6 weeks with 6 bit but no reaoir to the retaining ring. Some back focus and the retaining ring not repaired. Still a workable solution. Now we hit the really difficult lenses the 50 Noctilux , the 50 and 75 Summiluxes ..these are lenses that complete the system for me and are the ones that cause the most problems for Leica.... I can accept that fine tuning can be illusive but months of delays and sloppy servicing are hard to ignore. You satifaction will of course depend both on your requirements ( shooting a lot of close focus wide open ) and the lenses you use. My wide angles are excellent and I use them daily on two M8s ...the 35 summilux is deadly wide open. I have discussed these problems with dozens of M8 users and in only a few cases has anyone said ...my M8 and its lenses have all worked perfectly . I have done everything I know to do to solve these problems without much success. So if you want to make generalizations about how my experience is an exception please support it .

[barjohn]

On the surface it appears that if you are among the fortunate group that has not experienced a problem or you elected to live with the problem, then your experience with Leica NJ or Solms is very different than the vast majority that have sent items in for repair or replacement be it under warranty or for payment. One only needs to go through the numerous threads on this forum to see the number of people that have experienced problems and frustrations not to mention lost time not having their equipment (often in months). There are a few people that have a close personal relationship with Leica personnel and obtain exemplary service or because they are well known and Leica doesn't wish to have negative publicity from well known figures they receive excellent service but for the rest of us it just isn't that way. I know in my case it took a little over a month and many emails and phone calls and I consider myself lucky??? It isn't due to the small size of the company, it is due to either poor management or an attitude that says we are the only game in town so we don't care. Common Nikon, give me a RF with the D3 sensor!

[glenerrolrd]

hmm, so should I start posting in the 'I love my XYZ' posts to the effect that I cant stand said XZY?

 

more seriously, I dont think Leica have much financial risk from the likes of Roger, since the M8 is the only game in town people who are disapointed have no other option, and even for those (few I suspect) who want to get rid of their camera Leica have already made their sale. I think the financial litmus test will be when the next model comes out, which I expect to succeed incidentally..

Guy ....Why would you make quote that implies Leica shouldn t be concerned about me as a customer? I have never said anything about the company being at risk or even that the M8 was a service problem. The M8 is the only game in town and I will make my system work even if I have to replace every item . I also have no problems with my two M8s .....they had to replace the rangefinder on one and adjust the other ..but that was done within a 4-6 week window which I can live with. If I have too I will buy a 3rd M8 as I always use 2 cameras . My issues are not with the camera ..never have been although I feel lucky I started with the second batch. Many individuals however expect to be able to use legacy lenses or buy used copies . Having a lot of lenses and some of the most difficult to get right is clearly my problem and other individuals may have easier requirements to satisfy. My post was not to attack the M8 or Leica s business viability..it was to highlight what I consider a real concern with Leica s service model. There have been a lot of posts asking for guidence on sending in lenses for service. My advice to someone thinking about using leica s service is to think twice....(1) do you really need to send that lens in (2) could you do better by sending it to an independent service dealer like DAG .

[Guest tummydoc]

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vinay, all very interesting, but:

a) your analysis is at odds with Leica's financial report, and

you gloss over the harsh reality that Leica is a commercial undertaking, not a charity. The Only reason the M8 exists is because Leica think it will make them money.

 

Nothing like a literal counterpoint to highlight a tongue-in-cheek commentary. Thanks.

[Guest tummydoc]

Russell, M8 users split into two types, the majority that have had no problems, and the minority that have had problems.

 

ROFLMAO! I'll bet there's a greater percentage of M8 users who've never had sex than never had problems with their M8.

[pemayeux]

I will add however that inspite of the piss poor service from Leica N.J., that I am completely satisfied with my M8. As far as a digital camera goes, I think the only other camera that trumps it is the DMR. The problems I had were with one lens not focussing to infinity and another backfocussing. Both were repaired by Solms and repaired correctly. I had more problems with my first M6 than I have with the M8.

[guywalder]

Guy ....Why would you make quote that implies Leica shouldn t be concerned about me as a customer?

 

Roger, I was replying to Steve's comment that if Leica doesnt keep their customers happy they will have financial trouble.

 

I think that those customers who are unhappy with the customer service, or the camera, or the firmware are not having a financial impact on Leica. Your subsequent post seems to bear out my arguement, doesnt it?

Whether Leica are, or should be, concerned about those customers is another matter. I am a bit concerned that their priorities for FW updates are rather different from the priorities frequently being voiced on this forum (not that they should be under any obligation to follow this forum, but I have communicated my points in person, as I know others have).

 

Sorry if I used you as an unwilling or inapproriate example!

[Laki]

ROFLMAO! I'll bet there's a greater percentage of M8 users who've never had sex than never had problems with their M8.

 

if you're really a doc than i can only hope that you treat your patients with more respect than the people here in the forum, your posts are always soaked with some unbelievable negativity. if you're so disapointed with leica or whoever, why do you even bother to get pissed about them? sell your stuff and move on (and yes i did read often enough that you call yourself a serious collector). same applies to others as well. sorry, i had also problems with the service and still have to sort out some things, but i always weight the pros and cons for me and when the cons get to heavy then good bye.

 

at the end we're talking about a camera or lenses, it's not like world peace will be affected if a camera has flaws/problems/or whatever.

[Guest tummydoc]

 

ROFLMAO! I'll bet there's a greater percentage of M8 users who've never had sex than never had problems with their M8.

 

if you're really a doc than i can only hope that you treat your patients with more respect than the people here in the forum, your posts are always soaked with some unbelievable negativity. if you're so disapointed with leica or whoever, why do you even bother to get pissed about them? sell your stuff and move on (and yes i did read often enough that you call yourself a serious collector). same applies to others as well. sorry, i had also problems with the service and still have to sort out some things, but i always weight the pros and cons for me and when the cons get to heavy then good bye.

 

at the end we're talking about a camera or lenses, it's not like world peace will be affected if a camera has flaws/problems/or whatever.

 

Oh oh, sounds like somebody took my never-had-sex comment a little personally Climb off your soapbox, mine was a light-hearted poke at Steve's unsupportable reversal of fact, and nothing more.

[Laki]

Oh oh, sounds like somebody took my never-had-sex comment a little personally Climb off your soapbox, mine was a light-hearted poke at Steve's unsupportable reversal of fact, and nothing more.

 

you wont ever understand

[bab]

Glenn

Good effort for a post but its like claiming you saw a UFO hard than hell to get people to believe

Barry

[Guest stnami]

ROFLMAO! I'll bet there's a greater percentage of M8 users who've never had sex than never had problems with their M8

.........nothing negative here, use your imagination on this one.

..... in this case I am thinking about multiple partners, just in case I have to send one back for a while......................then again I could probably sneek a fling with a M8 partner............he won't notice with his head in the sand:D

[RSL]

Russell, M8 users split into two types, the majority that have had no problems, and the minority that have had problems. It's human nature that people who have had problems are more vocal than those who have not.

 

Steve, Of course you're right about the split. Some people have been very fortunate with their M8s. Others haven't. Though the question about people with problems being more vocal may be speculation -- and I don't think it is -- the answer to that question doesn't answer questions about the camera.

 

The first question I'd ask is: how many pictures do the people who don't have problems shoot? I suspect there are a lot of M8 owners out there who carry the camera as jewelry, or who bought the camera as a talisman because Cartier-Bresson and others like him used Leicas. I'd really want to know how many of the people with problems claim to be professionals, though I can't imagine a real professional nowadays trying to shoot, say, a wedding or a debutant's ball with a rangefinder. I used to do stuff like that when rangefinders were the best things available and Leica film Ms were the best of the best things available, but we're long past that period. Still, there are those who do a lot of shooting with their M8s and claim to be professionals and others who do very little. What's the failure rate relative to frames attempted. You'll notice that I don't say "frames shot," because with the M8 it appears that some frames attempted aren't frames shot.

 

In any case, it's very clear that the M8 has problems serious enough to keep sane people from trying to shoot un-repeatable things with the M8 unless they're well backed up with another camera -- preferably not another M8. It's true that when you do manage to shoot a frame you'll have a superior file, provided you shot in .DNG format and at a low ISO. I know that thanks to Jaap, who provided me with several superb sample files from the M8. But what does that mean on the street, for instance, where you can't very well say, "Miss, would you please resume that position so I can re-shoot that candid shot? I'll have to take the battery out of my M8 first and then put it back."

 

I hope Leica survives because I really want an M9. But unless they get their act together I'm afraid I'll be one of the dear departed before that happens.

 

Best regards,

[stunsworth]

The first question I'd ask is: how many pictures do the people who don't have problems shoot?

 

Russell, thanks for what in the context of recent posts is a rational, unemotional post.

 

I guess I can only answer for myself, and I'm not a professional. There are however several professionals that I'm aware of who use these strange digital cameras to earn a living - and some of them are wedding photographers, I hope some of them will dare to put their head above the parapet <grin>.

 

Ok, onto my personal experience. I've owned my M8 since January this year. In that time I''ve taken over 9000 frames - looking at the last frame I shot it appears that I've taken 9127 frames. In that time I think I've had one occasion where the camera has locked and I had to take out the battery and replace it to continue shooting - yes it was a worry at the time, but everything worked as soon as the battery was re-inserted. I've had absolutely no missed shots because the camera has failed to write the correct data to the card - this is using 2 and 4 gig cards, I would estimate over 99% of images have been written with an acceptable while balance when I've used AWB, the other 1% have consistently produced an image that is too cool. I shoot RAW, so such 'problems' are of no consequence.

 

The Venetian blind effect, I've noticed it on probably fewer than ten occasions, but I don't chimp so it may have happened more frequently, I don't know. I have never lost a shot because of this, pressing play allows me to see the image that wasn't displayed.

 

And that's about it. I can only repeat what I've said before, that technically the M8 has consistently given me the best photographs that I've ever seen from any camera, film or digital. If Leica were never to release another firmware upgrade I would continue to use the M8 and not only get superb images from a technical point of view, but also from dare I say, an artistic point of view.

 

Bottom line, I bought my first digital camera about 8 years ago. After using Canon digital SLRs from my original 300D (Rebel) though a 20D, to a 5D, I have never seen, or taken, better photographs that those taken with my M8.

[woodyspedden]

On the surface it appears that if you are among the fortunate group that has not experienced a problem or you elected to live with the problem, then your experience with Leica NJ or Solms is very different than the vast majority that have sent items in for repair or replacement be it under warranty or for payment. One only needs to go through the numerous threads on this forum to see the number of people that have experienced problems and frustrations not to mention lost time not having their equipment (often in months). There are a few people that have a close personal relationship with Leica personnel and obtain exemplary service or because they are well known and Leica doesn't wish to have negative publicity from well known figures they receive excellent service but for the rest of us it just isn't that way. I know in my case it took a little over a month and many emails and phone calls and I consider myself lucky??? It isn't due to the small size of the company, it is due to either poor management or an attitude that says we are the only game in town so we don't care. Common Nikon, give me a RF with the D3 sensor!

 

A f......ing men John. Those who have the clout get the royal treatment and then pass that off to the rest of us as typical Leica standards. Those of us who have experienced service that I could not compare with the worst of the Silicon Valley companies I am familiar with are not buying the mantra. Leica service sucks. Somebody has to just say it

 

Woody Spedden

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Look here: Leica M

[RSL]

Bottom line, I bought my first digital camera about 8 years ago. After using Canon digital SLRs from my original 300D (Rebel) though a 20D, to a 5D, I have never seen, or taken, better photographs that those taken with my M8.

 

Steve,

 

I'm happy for you. Evidently Jaap's had about the same experience you've had, and, as near as I can tell, before he went strapless, Sailor Ted also had a flawless M8. There are others on this forum and on RFF who've done a lot of shooting with the M8 without problems. But that kind of evidence is anecdotal. I'd like to know what the actual per-frame failure rate has been. I can write off the first few months of the M8's existence. It seems clear to me that Leica came out with the M8 knowing it wasn't ready for prime time, hoping they could get things under control before everything came crashing down. But even with later issue the problems seem to persist while the price goes up, and in the customer support area, things have come crashing down. I dearly wanted an M8, but seeing what was going on I paused, then finally gave up.

 

I can afford an M8 and I can afford the lenses, but if I'm going to spend six grand on a body I want a camera as dependable as my D2X, with which I fell down two steps on a sidewalk in Victor, Colorado a few months ago. The camera hit the sidewalk hard enough to bend the lens barrel, total the lens, and scratch the body pretty severely. I was sure the lens mount was distorted, but after two days of very careful testing I had to admit that the body had survived intact -- except for the scratches. THAT's dependability. I've had Nikons for many years and I've NEVER -- NEVER had a single frame fail. I've made some awfully bad shots, but the camera always went along with me and shot even the bad shots without complaining. I do a lot of street work, mostly with an R-D1, but even with the D2X. So far the R-D1 has been flawless too, though I'm sure it wouldn't survive a fall.

 

I still have high hopes for Leica, but if they don't start treating their loyal customers better than they're treating them at the moment, my hopes may be dashed.

 

Regards,

[stunsworth]

Russell, the only people who possibly are in a position to give you the real per frame failure rate for the M8 is Leica. I don't think any camera manufacturer puts this into the public domain. Until they do I can only tell you that my experience with the M8 indicates that it has the same failure rate as your Nikon - i.e. 0%.

 

If it's any indication, I was out shooting with the M8 last week at Tatton Park in Cheshire here in the UK, I slipped on some wet leaves and went arse over tit with the M8 around my neck. The camera swung around anfdhit the grass. It came out of it better than I did.