glenerrolrd Posted November 10, 2007 Share #1 Posted November 10, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is an update on my Noctilux, the 50 and 75 Summiluxes that I have sent Leica for service. To be brief my two M8 s required calibration in Solms this June..they are exactly the same. After the M8s were calibrated..all my wide angles plus the 50 and 90 Summicrons focused within acceptable tolerances(to me). The two 50s and the 75 backfocused and they were the same on both cameras . The 50 Noctilux was already in for 6 bit coding so we updated the service request to include a CLA as well as the 6 bit coding. This is the sequence .....recorded into service May 2 Leica NJ. After about 6 weeks when I called ....was told that they were out of mounts . In late July a technician looked at the lens and indicated it needed to go to Solms. I authorized this over the phone. Solms took the lens into service in August. It sat in the que awaiting my authorization for repair ...at $1330...I found this out by checking the Solms repair page and after 10 days of follow up I was finally able to authorize the repair. The lens was given to shipping on Oct 20 ....after another half a dozen calls I was able to get my address corrected and arrange for priority shipping at my cost. Today I received the lens over 6 months after Leica received it. ............. Here is the report (1) they forgot to do the 6 bit coding (2) they did not include the extended warrenty (3) the lens is filthy ..the front element has marks all over it ..the barrel has grease all over the outside . (4) the focus is very heavy ..not sure if thats supposed to loosen up but its not silky like most of my lenses. The only positive is that it looks pretty good for focusing accuracy ..but I need to test it more ............. The 50 and 75 Summiluxes are almost as bad. They were received at the beginning of August. I tried unsuccessfully for a month to get tracking numbers and paperwork. I was told by Robert Fisk at the beginning of September that they had to go to Solms . I immediately authorized the shipment and requested the German tracking numbers. After about a month and no response to my calls and emails I insisted on confirmation of the two lenses. They were found in a bin without any paperwork in NJ. They were put into the que. Near the end of October the 50 Summilux was returned with 6 bit coding ....but no change in the focusing point still backfocuses. And now the focus mount would no longer focus smoothly . The 75 was sent to Solms repair estimate $275 . The 50 was returned and sent to Solms. Does it get any better than this ? So if you are considering sending in your lenses to NJ ..think twice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 10, 2007 Posted November 10, 2007 Hi glenerrolrd, Take a look here Think Twice About Using Leica Service. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Shootist Posted November 10, 2007 Share #2 Posted November 10, 2007 Roger I feel your pain, as I have also felt it. I need to send in my black M8 for a glare in the RF patch whenever there is any bright light above directly in front and or to either side. Whether it is the sun or any other type of light or reflected light. I am NOT looking forward to it. I got a call from Sara @ NJ today about my 90mm TE that it would go in for RUSH coding. In the last 6+ months I have had the lens in my hands a total of 3 days and that was after it came back from Solms where it was supposed to be coded and wasn't. But Leica NJ had NO problem charging my credit card for the work I DID NOT originally ask for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted November 10, 2007 The standard of performance is below anything other company I know of. I was promised rush service at least 6 times on these 3 lenses. Rush must mean don t check anything. How do you miss 6 bit coding ..does anybody even read the order form? Step one ..have the technician initial each item on the form . Thats a 30 second solution ..is anybody paying attention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted November 10, 2007 Share #4 Posted November 10, 2007 I had a similar issue when I sent my M8 in for repair/replacement. It took numerous emails (that were ignored) and phone calls to finally achieve any results. It isn't my idea of what a premier company does or how it treats it customers. It also took may more weeks than such a replacement should have taken after I paid FedEx overnight delivery to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. white Posted November 10, 2007 Share #5 Posted November 10, 2007 Okay, I'm going take this opportunity for a rant... My take on this - Never Again. I thought I'd simply had a bad experience until I did a search in these forums and discovered how common having a bad experience with Leica's "Legendary Service" can be. The gory details, for those who are interested... I sent an M6 TTL and Tri-Elmar to NJ last October (the 28th) to have the lens coded and repair a problem with the framelines not being set correctly by the lens. Prior to sending the items, I'd contacted the NJ service dept. with a description of the problem, asking specifically if I should sent both items in for the repair. The response was, "Yes, send them both". As it turns out, the camera and lens sat somewhere in the NJ offices for more than a month they were even entered into Leica's system, which the documentation tells me occurred on December 14th. Hmm. Both were returned on January 31st - the lens was coded but the frameline issue hadn't been addressed at all. The repair notes said that the camera body "checked out without issue". They hadn't even tested with my lens mounted. I called to explain the issue and was graciously promised priority service in seeing the repair through. Both items were sent back to NJ where they sat for a month before it was determined that the lens had to be sent to Solms for repair. The word then was that no priority service would be possible. Cutting to the chase, at long last I received the repaired lens in mid-June. Now there's a legend to live up to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 10, 2007 Share #6 Posted November 10, 2007 I think it's unfortunate that people in the US have to deal with Leica NJ, mainly to reduce shipping costs and customs hassles, because most of what I read here about Leica NJ is pretty dismal. Chaotic, overloaded, lazy, incompetent, pick your adjective. I was shot down a few months ago by daring to suggest that Christian Erhardt should be doing more to improve the service experience of customers in the US. Some flew to his defence claiming it was not his job. Maybe such demarcation exists in large corporations but in an organisation of a few tens of people, at most? What's for certain is that Christian is the most public face of Leica NJ, his job is most certainly building the Leica brand and such dismal service experience as recorded here is working against him. Here in Europe, we can fortunately deal with Solms directly with lower shipping costs and no customs issues. Just as well, because having to go through Leica UK would be the stuff of nightmares. Some here have had good experiences but I do not count myself among them. Even so, dealing with Solms is a trial and that's before you even think of turnaround times. My Noctilux has recently gone back to them for a third time along with a TE for coding. I doubt I will see either again this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted November 10, 2007 Share #7 Posted November 10, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry to hear this, but why don't You try to send Your stuff to Solms directly, not over Leica NY? I send my gear directly to Solms without contacting Leica in Norway where I currently live. Customs can be nasty but I always got through. Leica in Norway was so unfriendly that I didn't even think about using their service - neither will I ever buy anything from them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 10, 2007 Share #8 Posted November 10, 2007 Sorry to hear this,but why don't You try to send Your stuff to Solms directly, not over Leica NY? I send my gear directly to Solms without contacting Leica in Norway where I currently live. Customs can be nasty but I always got through. Leica in Norway was so unfriendly that I didn't even think about using their service - neither will I ever buy anything from them! Maybe you have not read at least the first 2 posts to this thread. Both Roger and my lenes went to Solms and both were returned WITHOUT the ALL the work being done that was on the repair form AND LISTED as COMPLETED. It's NOT only Leica NJ that is ASLEEP at the wheel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 10, 2007 Share #9 Posted November 10, 2007 Selective reading and a bit if head in the sand job............I just borrowed one for a couple of weeks . My biggest fear is that it will break down, my mate will be pissed off and we won't see it back in Australia until sometime next year........................ as for Mick he will be beside himself...................he's out shootin and rootin at the moment Photography under duress does not make for a productive experience Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted November 10, 2007 Focus test shows the Noctilux back focuses at f1.0 and the focus shift from f1 to f8 is severe. Thats "0 for 5" on this lens. $700 and 6 months and its worse than before I sent it in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemayeux Posted November 10, 2007 Share #11 Posted November 10, 2007 I can concur with Roger's experience as well. Lenses went to NJ in March, got back to Texas in August via Solms. Sara is an idiot. Once she told me they had shipped back and would have them anytime, when they didn't show she told me they had not been repaired, denying that what she had already told me. Then she tells me she doesn't have anyway of finding out when they will be repaired and on and on. Neither she or Fisk believes in returning calls. Yeah - it's a good thing Leica NJ doesn't set the tone for the "Leica Experience". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted November 10, 2007 Share #12 Posted November 10, 2007 Happy to report excellent service from NJ on several occasions. My M8 developed the vertical line sensor flaw. Returned for replacement and received a new M8 in 1 week. 2 lenses sent for coding back in 4 weeks. I ordered a 50/1.4 asph with my discount. I had reason to want to change it to a 75/2.0. Senior folks in NJ were very helpful in working this out even after the 50 was shipped from Germany. I have found Robert Fisk and the rest of the staff to be responsive and professional. best...Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted November 10, 2007 Share #13 Posted November 10, 2007 As others have repeated ad infinitum, Leica is a very, very small company. The M8 is assembled in-house of out-sourced components, Leica's in-house staff has very little knowledge or experience with digital electronics and is relatively clueless other than of those sub-assemblies whose construction/operation carries over from film Ms, which amounts basically to the rangefinder/viewfinder. So, sorting the M8 continues to be a learning-curve for them. That has been compounded by the fact that, despite denialist propaganda, the M8 has proven inordinately and unexpectedly trouble-prone, and Leica has been constantly over-run with M8s needing sorting...all under warranty, thus the parts and labour involved are bleeding Leica's bottom-line and repair management is under seige from the bean-counters as well. So far I've only been speaking of Solms. Leica-USA has neither the trained staff nor the specific equipment to sort the M8 beyond rudimentaries such as cleaning the sensor and adjusting the rangefinder. They can replace the rear flanges of lenses with coded ones of course. They are equipped to collimate lenses to specification but they are truly befuddled by the seeming incongruity that of a dozen lenses which focus spot-on on any film M body, a few will be 'off' on the M8. As far as they--and Solms--are concerned, there ought to be 100% cross-compatibility. The fact there is not is something they did not contemplate or discover--or if they did, they didn't reveal it--very similar in nature to the naiivete with which they [claim to have] missed the IR issue. So it isn't fair to single out Leica-USA for poor service--although I'm saying nothing of poor customer communication which is of course within their power to control. Given the massive need for sorting, and the size of the American market, it seems incomprehensible that Solms hasn't sent a crack team of workers armed with the necessary tools to establish a top-notch repair facility in NJ. However as I stated earlier, Leica is hemorrhaging from the cost of these unending warranty repairs, and the continual price raises on the M8, as immense as they've been, are of little help. Once again it's essential that we all muster our loyalty, patience and forgiveness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted November 10, 2007 Share #14 Posted November 10, 2007 I am SOOOOOOOO... GLAD I decided not to buy an M8! On the other hand, having worked with fabulous film Ms for years, I hope Leica survives this fiasco and comes back with an M9 that can restore their very much wounded reputation. Unfortunately, it's pretty obvious that unless they get their customer service house in order it's unlikely they'll survive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 10, 2007 Share #15 Posted November 10, 2007 vinay, all very interesting, but: a) your analysis is at odds with Leica's financial report, and you gloss over the harsh reality that Leica is a commercial undertaking, not a charity. The Only reason the M8 exists is because Leica think it will make them money. Leica's turnover puts it firmly in the mid-size category, and the modest increases in personnel costs (circa 4%) and replacement parts/customer service (circa 11%) bear little relation to the 55% increase in turnover for system cameras, which includes the oh so popular R system of course. Figures from the recent annual report 2006/2007, which covers the period up to April07. That said, my personal experience of customer service has been exemplary, just a shame I had to take my new camera and two thirds of my lenses back to be fixed Russel, your gloomy view is also at odds with the financial results Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 10, 2007 Share #16 Posted November 10, 2007 Russell, M8 users split into two types, the majority that have had no problems, and the minority that have had problems. It's human nature that people who have had problems are more vocal than those who have not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 10, 2007 Share #17 Posted November 10, 2007 Russell, M8 users split into two types, the majority that have had no problems, and the minority that have had problems. It's human nature that people who have had problems are more vocal than those who have not. Steve, unless I am very much mistaken, your comments are pure speculation. There is no data in the public domain as to the extent or lack of customer satisfaction. Also your numerous comments, and those by others on the forum are proof positive that there are plenty of people who, regularly, trumpet their satisfaction, just like there are many who trumpet their disatisfaction. Presumably someone somewhere is already busing working up a PhD on how representative forum members are of the overall ownership group. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantist Posted November 10, 2007 Share #18 Posted November 10, 2007 Sorry to hear this,but why don't You try to send Your stuff to Solms directly, not over Leica NY? I send my gear directly to Solms without contacting Leica in Norway where I currently live. Customs can be nasty but I always got through. Leica in Norway was so unfriendly that I didn't even think about using their service - neither will I ever buy anything from them! This reminds me that three years ago, living in Oslo, I called Leica Norway to get some informations in order to buy a Digilux 2. Answers were "No, no, no, no... we don't know...". One day trip to Köpenhavn, litterally "the harbour for purchasing", and the case was closed I have absolutely no problem with my 6 weeks old M8, thanks to Leica and the photographers' Gods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted November 10, 2007 As others have repeated ad infinitum, Leica is a very, very small company. The M8 is assembled in-house of out-sourced components, Leica's in-house staff has very little knowledge or experience with digital electronics and is relatively clueless other than of those sub-assemblies whose construction/operation carries over from film Ms, which amounts basically to the rangefinder/viewfinder. So, sorting the M8 continues to be a learning-curve for them. That has been compounded by the fact that, despite denialist propaganda, the M8 has proven inordinately and unexpectedly trouble-prone, and Leica has been constantly over-run with M8s needing sorting...all under warranty, thus the parts and labour involved are bleeding Leica's bottom-line and repair management is under seige from the bean-counters as well. So far I've only been speaking of Solms. Leica-USA has neither the trained staff nor the specific equipment to sort the M8 beyond rudimentaries such as cleaning the sensor and adjusting the rangefinder. They can replace the rear flanges of lenses with coded ones of course. They are equipped to collimate lenses to specification but they are truly befuddled by the seeming incongruity that of a dozen lenses which focus spot-on on any film M body, a few will be 'off' on the M8. As far as they--and Solms--are concerned, there ought to be 100% cross-compatibility. The fact there is not is something they did not contemplate or discover--or if they did, they didn't reveal it--very similar in nature to the naiivete with which they [claim to have] missed the IR issue. So it isn't fair to single out Leica-USA for poor service--although I'm saying nothing of poor customer communication which is of course within their power to control. Given the massive need for sorting, and the size of the American market, it seems incomprehensible that Solms hasn't sent a crack team of workers armed with the necessary tools to establish a top-notch repair facility in NJ. However as I stated earlier, Leica is hemorrhaging from the cost of these unending warranty repairs, and the continual price raises on the M8, as immense as they've been, are of little help. Once again it's essential that we all muster our loyalty, patience and forgiveness I have no forgiveness left for Leica either in NJ or Solms. It has nothing to do with the size of the company, the complexity of the products or the work load. It has to do with management and a serious attitude problem. Consider the following recommendations (1) start with understanding and documentation of the requested service....service writers need to document the reguested service in a manner that is understood by the technicians as well as serve as a basis for scheduling technical staff (2) tracking of items received and timely customer communications on status (3) timely communication of repair estimates and follow up to reduce unnecessary que time (4) timely shipping of completed service items.(5) requiring technicians to sign off on each item requiring service . None of these have anything to do with technical resources, adequate testing facilities etc in fact they all place a premium on effective resource utilization. Not returning phone calls, lack of proper workorders, forgeting to send lenses to Solms for 4 weeks , letting lenses sit in Solms for a month awaiting payment authorization,promising rush service and sticking the item in the normal que these are hard to forgive ...when the lens comes back worse than it went in . We aren t threading the needle here these are an attitude problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 10, 2007 Share #20 Posted November 10, 2007 Steve, unless I am very much mistaken, your comments are pure speculation Guy, indeed it is speculation. But if the problems being discussed here - and I'm not denying that some people are having problems - are typical of all or the majority of M8s out in the field, Leica will be bankrupt within a short period of time. Perhaps we should wait and see the figures at the end of the year. It's only anecdotal evidence, but every M8 user that I've met has been more than pleased with the camera. I'm just trying to add some balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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