Question re:50/1.4 Summilux versions

[rpsawin]

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I am interested in a 50/1.4 Summilux for use on both an M10-M and M10-R. I would appreciate comments on performance/experience with either or both lenses on any modern digital Leica.

Thanks in advance,

[adan]

Just to make sure we are talking the same "versions:"

v.1 - 1959-1961, Wetzlar design (a variation on the 50mm f/1.5 Summarit design, with new glass types)
v.2 - 1961-1991, Mandler/Canada complete redesign
"V.2a" (some call it version 3), 1992-2005, same glass and imaging as the v.2, but in a new barrel that 1) focuses down to 0.7m instead of 0.9m, 2) has a built-in sliding lens hood, and 3) adopted the new standard filter size of E46. Same weight as the v.2, which probably means Leica replaced some brass with aluminum in the outer barrel, to compensate for the added weight of the built-in hood and longer focusing helical.

...and for completeness, the ASPH version 2006-2022, just replaced by a revised 2023 version focusing to 0.4m with EVFs, and with other tweaks.

The fact that Leica replaced the v.1 after only 2 years speaks volumes. It was an improvement over the Summarit, but still rather hazy overall when wide open, and IQ dropped rapidly away from the center.

In the words of the late Leica lens maven Erwin Puts, "The first Summilux has low overall contrast at full aperture....and on-axis coarse detail is rendered with good clarity but with soft edges, rapidly becoming blurred when approaching the corners."

The v.2 is sharper at f/1.4, out to around 5mm from the center, but also has a rapid fall-off towards the corners at larger apertures. Puts again, "This second design has a higher overall contrast at full aperture and very fine detail in the center is rendered with high edge contrast....but performance (still) takes a visible dip in quality when going to the outer zones."

Both the v.1 and v.2 require about f/8-f/11 to get the corners as sharp as the center. But these were lenses designed for the likes of Henri Cartier-Bresson to document people in action and life on the street and news events, not landscapes or brick walls at f/1.4.  

The v.2 has a bit more barrel (fisheye-type) distortion than the v.1 (but still low; 1.5% at the extreme corners). It has the same somewhat yellow/green/cyan color balance as Dr. Mandler's other 1970s-80s Leitz/Canadian lenses (a plus for me - but may need a slightly pink "Skylight" filter to match with more recent Leica lenses' color)

The v.2a/3 is the same as the v.2.

However, it is interesting to try it at the 0.7m minimum focus setting, because it shows exactly why Leica did not allow focusing closer than 0.9m with this design for 30 years. The image gets very soft and dreamy in that close-focus range at larger apertures. And for some that may be an artistic benefit.

More here - pages 43-51 approximately:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3a/Puts-2002-M-lenses.pdf

The 2005 ASPH is a completely different lens - designed from scratch* by Peter Karbe 40 years later than the Mandler v2/2a.

Molded ASPH element, anomalous-dispersion glasses, floating element for improved imaging as closer distance, near APO performance.

*well, it is derived from Karbe's 75 APO-Summicron-ASPH design from 2005.

Edited April 19, 2023 by adan

[adan]

Nope - 75 first, 50 second - check the dates of introduction.

It is the case that Dr. Mandler derived the 75 Summilux from the 50mm Summilux v.2 design, in 1980.

As to the APO name - yeah, the 50 ASPH was designed when Leica was still honest using that designation - i.e. APO actually meant Apochromatic, not just "better than what we made before, and priced as such."  

Edited April 19, 2023 by adan

[oldwino]

I own the Summarit 50 1.5, and owned simultaneously the V1 and V2 Summiluxes. The V1 was a slight improvement over the Summarit, but still needed to be stopped down to f4 at a minimum to control aberrations. It still showed great character at f8. I found the lens to be pretty much distortion free. 

The V2 was largely the same, but with more distortion, and maybe a little less dreamy at wider apertures. I preferred shooting the V1 to be honest - when you want that sort of look, then why not go all the way?

I've only held on to the Summarit, as it is in LTM and I can use it on my Barnacks. I do miss that V1, but do not miss the V2 at all. 

[rpsawin]

Thanks all.

[rpsawin]

After weighing all the relevant factors I purchased a new CV 50/1.2 ASPH Nokton. As I just received the lens yesterday I am just putting it through my test. So far, I am impressed.

[Jeff S]

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On 4/19/2023 at 1:50 PM, Al Brown said:

https://www.youtube.com/live/bGCIuGFdhvk?feature=share&t=1449

If you care check the video at the timestamp, Red Dot folks confirm what I am saying, quote: "75 APO Summicron was based off of the design of the 50/1.4 ASPH, which came out the year prior".

Also check the link I pasted in thread #3, it is saying the same. I have pasted the quote here.

 

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A year late, but Karbe also discussed the sequence at the end of an August, 2009 interview with Shutterbug magazine, discussing the 50 Summilux ASPH, excerpted as follows…

PK: One foible of all high aperture lenses is the fact that these lenses can be optimized for one distance only (infinity). To maintain the optical performance at close focusing distances an additional degree of freedom is needed. This was realized by employing a floating element for the design of the Summilux 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. The challenge was to achieve this floating element without enlarging the size of the lens and keeping the well-known, super-smooth “Leica feel” in the focusing mount. This proved to be a nightmare on the production line and we needed several trials to achieve an optimized production process.

SB: What did you learn from this process that will be helpful in designing future Leica lenses?

PK: The APO Summicron 75mm f/2 ASPH is the second step in this process. One Saturday morning, I woke up and remembered that the Summilux 75mm f/1.4 was derived from the Summilux 50mm f/1.4 (designed by Dr. Mandler) and I decided to try the same basic idea with the 50mm Summicron. Thus, the APO Summicron 75mm ASPH was born. Yes, there are still many other new ideas I would like to realize in the future.

 

And speaking of 50 Summilux versions, Leica Rumors just reported that the next vintage lens reissue will be the v.1 Summilux.

Jeff

Edited May 29, 2024 by Jeff S