JumpStart Posted November 5, 2007 Share #1 Posted November 5, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was wondering if the people who are publishing on line are shooting in B&W mode or are converting it in an image processing software like PS3, etc. The reason I ask is I would like to have some B&W images, but don't really want to sacrifice the colour info if I don't have to . Thanks DBK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 5, 2007 Posted November 5, 2007 Hi JumpStart, Take a look here Shooting in B&W or converting File. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gesper Posted November 5, 2007 Share #2 Posted November 5, 2007 All RAW data is color, and that is what everyone is shooting and later converting to B&W. You can't convert RAW to B&W in the camera, only jpegs. If you designate B&W in the camera, you can view the replay in B&W, but your RAWs will still be in color. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted November 5, 2007 Share #3 Posted November 5, 2007 All RAW data is color, and that is what everyone is shooting and later converting to B&W. You can't convert RAW to B&W in the camera, only jpegs. If you designate B&W in the camera, you can view the replay in B&W, but your RAWs will still be in color. Just to clarify this – you can view in B&W in camera only if you're taking some form of JPEG (either with or without RAW as well). If you shoot RAW+JPEG you get the best of both worlds (B&W review in-camera, the option to revert to colour in post-processsing) at the expense of some card capacity and clogging up your hard drive with two sets of images. You can get better quality B&W conversions and recover more shadow and highlight detail if you shoot RAW in any case, so unless there's a compelling reason not to – and I can't think of many – it's best to shoot RAW and then convert. And that keeps your options open if you decide you want the shot in colour. There's a big article in this week's Amateur Photographer about shooting in-camera JPEGs in B&W and how to get it right so as not to have to do post-process conversion. I still think that's the wrong route to go down, but if you're interested the article might be worth a look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 5, 2007 Share #4 Posted November 5, 2007 Like the others above I shoot RAW and then convert to b&w in Photoshop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alba63 Posted November 5, 2007 Share #5 Posted November 5, 2007 Now the interesting question: Do people who mainly go for B&W shoot WITH or WITHOUT IR filters? IR sensitivity should be almost ideal for great BW results, however if you happen to leave a shot in color you risk color shifts... I'd be curious to hear a few voices.... regards, Bernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 5, 2007 Share #6 Posted November 5, 2007 With filters. If you ever shoot in IR with the M8 - i.e. with a v dark red or black filter - you'll see that IR needs a different focussing point from visible light. So if anything I'd expect it to have a negative effect on something like sharpness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted November 5, 2007 Share #7 Posted November 5, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) One rationale for using the UV/IR cut filters when shooting B&W is that the rangefinders are designed to focus the visible spectrum, more or less, on the sensor plane. Light of different wavelengths are refracted differentially, hence the need for some accommodation or adjustment when shooting with a dark IR filter such as the 093. Unfortunately, my Leica lenses lack the the little IR mark on the focus ring that some other lenses carry which allows one to focus and then shift when shooting IR. I've had to basically make my own chart for my various lenses I use with IR. Wouldn't it be nice to have a little lever on the front of the M8, not unlike the frameline lever, that would skew the focus just enough for IR? Well, careful what I should wish for... Anyway, when shooting B&W with the M8 I prefer to convert to monochrome in the RAW converter rather than messing with PS. Those little JFI filter thingy's for C1 work very nicely and are very inexpensive. The B&W routines in Silkypix are very pleasing too. And to think that for so many years all I did was desaturate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alba63 Posted November 5, 2007 Share #8 Posted November 5, 2007 If you ever shoot in IR with the M8 Not sure if my posting was clear enough: The question was if filtering out the IR light with the 486 filters does not make BW better really: I had a M8 on a loan for a few hours with the filter on, and I found the BW conversions so....so only. I have however read on the Forums that a small part of IR hitting the sensor (no filter on) helpt to get great shadow detail when converting to BW. Focussing the M8 with no filter on should be correct, or am I wrong? That was my question really :-) Bernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 5, 2007 Share #9 Posted November 5, 2007 Bernie, I have read that as well, but frankly I think how you process the file will have a greater effect than whether you take the filter off or not. Since I got my filters they have stayed on all the time, so I have no problem deciding colour / BW after taking the pictures. What was so-so about your pictures? Here are some I did earlier: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/37343-shooting-in-bw-or-converting-file/?do=findComment&comment=394017'>More sharing options...
alba63 Posted November 5, 2007 Share #10 Posted November 5, 2007 Bernie,I have read that as well, but frankly I think how you process the file will have a greater effect than whether you take the filter off or not. Since I got my filters they have stayed on all the time, so I have no problem deciding colour / BW after taking the pictures. What was so-so about your pictures? Guy, those are nice indeed. I franky admit that my experience with the M8 is limited to a 2-3 hour "test shot" and a few dozens of RAW files, the Leica store here gave it to me for a tryout and it had the filter on. My impression was however that the filters cut off a part of the red spectrum that makes one of the nicest parts of BW conversions. But as I say, I need to experiment much more, should I get a M8. I will participate in a one day presentation workshop of the "Leica academy" this week, we will be given a M8 with lens for the afternoon and can shoot freely in the city. BTW: Where are those photos made? Asia? Did you take the M8 with you on trips - and if yes, any issues on reliabilty? regards, Bernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 5, 2007 Share #11 Posted November 5, 2007 Hi Bernie, the point I was making (badly) when I mentioned IR focusing differently from visible light was that the IR could reduce the sharpness of a 'normal' image. In theory at least. I use the filters all the time. Personally I've found them essential for accurate colour work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 5, 2007 Share #12 Posted November 5, 2007 Bernie, as I say, I havnt done a with/without filter comparison, but looking (straight) through the filters they are not taking any significant amount of visible red out of the spectrum, to my eye. To my mind the most important first step in the conversion to B&W is to optimise levels, if you dont the results can look very flat. Yes all those were from Asia, and when I travelled I only took my (single) M8 which hasn't given me any reliability problems (so far!). I did however take it and 2/3 of my lenses back to Solms soon after I bought it, due to poor focus adjustment and a problem with very saturated orange colours. All fixed FOC in a week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alba63 Posted November 5, 2007 Share #13 Posted November 5, 2007 Yes all those were from Asia, and when I travelled I only took my (single) M8 which hasn't given me any reliability problems (so far!). I did however take it and 2/3 of my lenses back to Solms soon after I bought it, due to poor focus adjustment and a problem with very saturated orange colours. All fixed FOC in a week. Ok, you are much better in the position to judge BW conversions than I am, I will do my own test should I get a M8. The second pic looks really like a gorgeous landscape, what mountains were these? Ladakh, Nepal? kind regards, bernie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 5, 2007 Share #14 Posted November 5, 2007 Bernie, well spotted, its the Nubra valley in Ladakh, specifically its looking west up the valley from Diskit Gompa. Of the 3 pictures that one was the least manipulated in post. The first was taken in the Indus valley and the last was in Pakistan. Incidentally I have found that more dust finds its way onto the M8 sensor than my nikon, or at least it becomes more apparent more quickly, so I recommend investing in an arctic butterfly or suchlike. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Campbell Posted November 5, 2007 Share #15 Posted November 5, 2007 With filters. If you ever shoot in IR with the M8 - i.e. with a v dark red or black filter - you'll see that IR needs a different focussing point from visible light. So if anything I'd expect it to have a negative effect on something like sharpness. The out of focus IR contirbution to the image is 6-8 stops dimmer than the visible light contirbution. IR doesn't really affect the sharpness of the image, but it does reduce contrast. The effect is like preflashing paper with an enlarger. To my eyes whether this is desirable or not depends on the application. In available darkness situations I shoot without a filter because it mitigates the tendency to get "chalk and charcol" results. The "South Beach Party" gallery on my Zenfolio site, for example, was shot with a Nocti and no filter. Otherwise I tend to shoot with the filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted November 5, 2007 Share #16 Posted November 5, 2007 I normally do NOT use filters. Specifically for B&W conversions, I feel it does a much better job, more closely matching the spectral response of film --- and even more so with skintones. As for softness, the M8 sensor already filters out more than enough IR to prevent focus issues... M8, 50 Pre-Lux - NO filter, f2.8, ISO 640. Check out the subtle tonalities in the highlights, the children's skin and the shadows. I submit they will not be rendered as delicately with the extra IR-cut filter on the lens. And even with this "old" lens, the image is plenty sharp...: Mods have said we can't post images inside any forum except the photo section, so I am linking to it: Cinco_smooth - GetDPI Image Gallery @ http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery Oh, and the conversion was done in CS3 using the B&W adjustment layer and hitting "Auto" --- doesn't get much simpler than that... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 5, 2007 Share #17 Posted November 5, 2007 Mods have said we can't post images inside any forum except the photo section, so I am linking to it: Cinco_smooth - GetDPI Image Gallery @ http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery No, they haven't. They have said that you can't post images in the M8 section UNLESS it illustrates a technical point. So, if your shot illustrates that IR doesn't affect the image because the sensor filters it out sufficiently for B&W work, then that's fine. However, you are correct that the M8 section (or any section outside the Photo section), is not for posting "normal" photos, i.e. for "sharing" purposes. Any "sharing" photo posts will be moved to the appropriate Photo section. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted November 5, 2007 Share #18 Posted November 5, 2007 I normally do NOT use filters. Specifically for B&W conversions, I feel it does a much better job, more closely matching the spectral response of film --- and even more so with skintones. As for softness, the M8 sensor already filters out more than enough IR to prevent focus issues... M8, 50 Pre-Lux - NO filter, f2.8, ISO 640. Check out the subtle tonalities in the highlights, the children's skin and the shadows. I submit they will not be rendered as delicately with the extra IR-cut filter on the lens. And even with this "old" lens, the image is plenty sharp...: Cheers, Jack, do you submit that tonalities are more subtle in colour pictures shot without filter as well? As far as I can see if they are in B&W then they must be in colour as well, after all whats coming off the sensor is just brightness values, subsequently interpreted into brightness and colour to make up the raw file (such is my understanding anyway). On the other hand, as the IR contamination of colour files is pretty random, or at least very situational, doesnt that also make the filter/no filter difference in B&W also pretty random/situational?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted November 5, 2007 Share #19 Posted November 5, 2007 All RAW data is color, and that is what everyone is shooting and later converting to B&W. You can't convert RAW to B&W in the camera, only jpegs. If you designate B&W in the camera, you can view the replay in B&W, but your RAWs will still be in color. Actually raw data is black and white as in a text file ( if you ayually printed it out). Raw data isn't a picture until it is processed, either in camera or post processing, where the colors are assigned. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpStart Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share #20 Posted November 5, 2007 WOW! A tremendous amount of info to my question. Thanks everyone for the info. I'll look forward to perhaps one day submitting an answer that helps someone. Cheers DBK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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