Seriously considering "downgrading"

[DenverSteve]

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On 2/27/2023 at 2:19 PM, cozmopak said:

Can you elucidate why it's in a different league for you?

Not speaking for Gateway77, but maybe I can help.  Do you mean besides the new full-frame 60 MP BSI CMOS-type sensor with what Leica calls ‘Triple Resolution Technology’ – offering three DNG raw data recording options – 60 MP, 36 MP, and 18 MP, respectively. In addition to the conventional 60 MP capture, the two lower-res options adopt pixel binning from the native resolution and are saved at the smaller image sizes. There’s also a new low base ISO sensitivity setting of ISO 64 and an upper limit of ISO 50,000. Continuous shooting maxes at 4.5 fps regardless of setting either RAW (DNG) or JPEG. Or maybe,

· The new base which improves weather sealing and strength

· New black paint option is very resilient with grippy finish a

· Aluminium top plate on black version makes it 110g lighter

· Button layout is now the same as the SL2 and Q2

· Three new programmable function buttons (Fn, top-plate, thumbwheel)

· New battery with 700-shot CIPA standard

· 64GB of very fast internal memory

· Brand new and faster Maestro III processor

· New 60mp BSI sensor with excellent dynamic range

· Full-time off-sensor metering (much more accurate, no extra shutter lag)

· Electronic Shutter (up to 1/16,000 sec)

· USB-C charging, 

· PTP and Apple MFI connectivity using USB-C port

· Improved Fotos app allowing filtering selections and tethering

· New well constructed EVF with bigger and brighter image (like Q2)

· Combined Quick Menu and status screen

· Menus changed to be even more comparable with Q2 and SL2

· Improved menu system for uncoded M lenses

· Digital Zoom mode with frame lines for 1.3 and 1.8 crops

· Variable DNG size (18.4mb, 36.5mb and 60.3mb)

 

I hope that helps. 😜

Edited March 1, 2023 by DenverSteve

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[DenverSteve]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:45 PM, cozmopak said:

I am seriously considering selling my M11 and keeping my M10-P.  The sticky shutter of the M11 is not jiving with me.  Also, the colors on the M10 appear "richer" to my eyes.  The motion blur I am getting from the M11 is also significantly degrading its "on paper" higher spatial resolution.

Am I crazy?  Please convince me otherwise if you can!

After all my last post - Only you can decide what works best for you.  Only your eyes can decide what you prefer.  I would never try to elucidate someone to try and change their mind, just to educate.  I won’t try to convince you, or change your mind. You should sell if you want to. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by DenverSteve

[Jewl]

Also coming from an M10P and after 9 months with the M11, I still think the M10P especially for what I do would be totally sufficient! 

Nevertheless, the improvements really make the M11 feel state of the art whereas the M10 always felt a bit outdated (especially the handling! - e.g. menu, fotos app connection etc.) - And, I really had a couple of issues with the sensor as I am shooting in very severe lighting situations (very dark, high iso, pushing DR to its limits etc.). And this especially for me justified that the M11 is the better camera and is way more future proof! Also the metering mode is for me very important. The M10P often resulted in underexposure especially in contrast rich situations! 

And, the weight + the finish is so much better! Obviously, there are a lot of improvements to ME at least. 

In the end, you cannot go wrong with the M10P 😉

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jewl

[WvE]

All the M11 improvements won't lead to better photo's. I guess it's about with which camera you bond most with, and that might lead to better photo's...

[Henners]

11 hours ago, Photoworks said:

what about the limited dynamic range and blowen highlights?

Not really too fussed, I'm not doing professional work anymore so it would be for capturing memories and occasionally spending more time setting up a shot and moving in to position/waiting for light etc but overall I would just work with the cameras abilities. I used to love the original Canon 5D as the dynamic range was quite low but due to that it was fun for silhouettes and other creative choices.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Henners

[rustyrus]

Is this still going on? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[Leitz.]

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On 2/28/2023 at 2:45 AM, cozmopak said:

I am seriously considering selling my M11 and keeping my M10-P.  The sticky shutter of the M11 is not jiving with me.  Also, the colors on the M10 appear "richer" to my eyes.  The motion blur I am getting from the M11 is also significantly degrading its "on paper" higher spatial resolution.

Am I crazy?  Please convince me otherwise if you can!

No you’re not crazy. We just need to find the right tool for us and keep that. Since we shoot rangefinders we don’t need to play this upgrade game every time something new comes out. You focus. You shoot the picture. There’s nothing else to it. 

The 10R is as high a resolution as I would want to go on a Leica rangefinder. 

As far as the “blown highlights”. The camera never blows any highlights. The photographer blows them. You can learn to get the most out of any Leica rangefinder and you’ll get beautiful results with any of them. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Leitz.

[Kwesi]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:55 AM, WvE said:

All the M11 improvements won't lead to better photo's. I guess it's about with which camera you bond most with, and that might lead to better photo's...

True. But some of the M11 improvements can lead to easier bonding with the camera which can lead to making photos that were previously more cumbersome to make.

For example, before the M11 I never shot my sumiluxxes wide open at parades because I don't believe in screwing/unscrewing nd filters while im on the street - kills the spontaneity for me. with the M11 I just stay in hybrid shutter as always, open up, and shoot -  allowing me to isolate my subject without losing context. Just like they do in the movies.

Not trying to sway the OP one way or another - just stating that there is only limited truth to the "the camera doesn't matter" myth.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, Leitz. said:

As far as the “blown highlights”. The camera never blows any highlights. The photographer blows them. You can learn to get the most out of any Leica rangefinder and you’ll get beautiful results with any of them. 

Correct, the photographer should choose the right tool to not blow the highlights.

I was in Paris at the lanch of SL2 and got chatting with Dr. Kaufmann, He asked what do you like different on you camera? My asware was a M10 with more dynamic range, so that we can recover back light and sunset blown highlights. He said, The new SL2 will do that for you. a year later the M10R came out.

Underexposing the M10 so that we can recover in processing is something we did. but it is not normal. 
I client doesn't care how you shoot, but i should not be put in the situation where you have to say: Oh yeah the image is not to dart, i will fix it in post!
That is what the M10R has proven as!

Can you shoot with M10-P? yes! but M110-R and M11 are a much more sensible choise if you objective.
Shutter sound importance is much more a personal choice, and does not affect image quality as much. Except you images reflect the mood of the photographer!

[Leitz.]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Underexposing

I don’t see exposing something this way.  A photo isn’t under exposed or over exposed. For me exposure is a choice. Like a sunset. If you shoot at the sun you need to make a choice. You can expose for the sun or for everything else. In any camera. That’s the way I do it. 

I have an M10R and if I try exposing everything equally or leave the camera to expose everything on AUTO I’m still going to get highlights totally blown out beyond recovery. 

In terms of the camera’s dynamic range, the M10 and the M10R I’m very sure are capable of very similar results. 

In my experience the difference is that the M10R can be a bit noisier in the shadow area when recovering but I don’t mind it and I appreciate the extra resolution. 
 

In terms of highlights you really shouldn’t have issues with any of them if you take the time to set your  camera properly for the scene. Whatever “properly” means. 

Exposure is always a choice. 

As far as I can see the downgrade is resolution and that 24MP sensor. 

Personally I would never change my M10R because I just like that sensor and the 40MP. I think the 10R is a special camera. 

M11 I would never buy because 60MP is just going to introduce issues I don’t have with the M10R and I like the classic M10 experience more. 

If I was the OP I would get rid of both and get a new M10R. Because for Me that’s the perfect digital M. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Leitz.

[Leitz.]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Correct, the photographer should choose the right tool to not blow the highlights

And no. If you blew the highlights it isn’t the tool. It’s you. 

There’s a light above me right now. I can decide to blow the light or not. It doesn’t matter I’m shooting with my phone. 

The camera isn’t in control. you are  

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 2, 2023 by Leitz.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Leitz. said:

In terms of the camera’s dynamic range, the M10 and the M10R I’m very sure are capable of very similar results. 

Are you talking from experience ? or are you just mixing up M10 with M10R? M10R has a S3 sensor! 

1 hour ago, Leitz. said:

M11 I would never buy because 60MP is just going to introduce issues I don’t have with the M10R and I like the classic M10 experience more. 

So you have tested the M11?  I don't think you would say that if you did.

 

Honestly i don't care eather way, but I would like people by informed when reading this. They should be aware of the plus and minus of each and form their own opinion.

[Photoworks]

59 minutes ago, Leitz. said:

And no. If you blew the highlights it isn’t the tool. It’s you. 

There’s a light above me right now. I can decide to blow the light or not. It doesn’t matter I’m shooting with my phone. 

The camera isn’t in control. you are  

 

 

What is dynamic range?

Dynamic range describes the ratio between the brightest and darkest parts of an image, from pure black to brightest white. The best digital cameras capture only half as much range as the human eye. (adobe)

[Tailwagger]

If I was shooting street or mostly with older optics, I'd go back to an M10.  Otherwise, M11 all day, every day.  Just as with SrMi, my 10-R sits gathering dust... in my case waiting for the day when the M11M arrives. 

[Leitz.]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

Are you talking from experience ? or are you just mixing up M10 with M10R? M10R has a S3 sensor! 

So you have tested the M11?  I don't think you would say that if you did.

 

Honestly i don't care eather way, but I would like people by informed when reading this. They should be aware of the plus and minus of each and form their own opinion.

The topic of DR between M10R and M10 have been discussed here in a lot of detail. You can search. 
 

As far as the M11 problems; just re-read the OP. 

On 2/28/2023 at 2:45 AM, cozmopak said:

I am seriously considering selling my M11 and keeping my M10-P.  The sticky shutter of the M11 is not jiving with me.  Also, the colors on the M10 appear "richer" to my eyes.  The motion blur I am getting from the M11 is also significantly degrading its "on paper" higher spatial resolution.

Am I crazy?  Please convince me otherwise if you can!

 

[Leitz.]

28 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Just as with SrMi, my 10-R sits gathering dust... in my case waiting for the day when the M11M arrives. 

you should’ve swapped with the OP. 

[Photoworks]

5 minutes ago, Leitz. said:

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

Are you talking from experience ? or are you just mixing up M10 with M10R? M10R has a S3 sensor! 

So you have tested the M11?  I don't think you would say that if you did.

 

Honestly i don't care eather way, but I would like people by informed when reading this. They should be aware of the plus and minus of each and form their own opinion.

The topic of DR between M10R and M10 have been discussed here in a lot of detail. You can search. 
 

As far as the M11 problems; just re-read the OP. 

On 2/27/2023 at 2:45 PM, cozmopak said:

I am seriously considering selling my M11 and keeping my M10-P.  The sticky shutter of the M11 is not jiving with me.  Also, the colors on the M10 appear "richer" to my eyes.  The motion blur I am getting from the M11 is also significantly degrading its "on paper" higher spatial resolution.

Am I crazy?  Please convince me otherwise if you can!

 

That was not my question. whatever.

[Leitz.]

57 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

That was not my question. whatever.

There have been charts made of the M10 and M10R on their dynamic range and they’re not very different at all. I don’t find this conversation very interesting. It has been discussed in detail here.
 

The larger differences come with the M11, but in terms of every day use, I would rather take photos with the M10R.

I’m not sure why this matters. 

I like the M10R has a native base iso of “100”, and that’s nice. I like the extra pixels. I love the colors. But this whole thing about “blowing highlights” isn’t it. 

This whole thing about “the M10 blows highlights” is just not true. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Leitz.

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[Leitz.]

@Photoworks Oh no. You’re one of Those forum people. Sigh. 

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, Leitz. said:

you should’ve swapped with the OP. 

For what? 

1 hour ago, Leitz. said:

This whole thing about “the M10 blows highlights” is just not true. 

What is true is that the reflective metering has always been inaccurate as hell in anything that remotely resembles a complex scene.  It has always been a guessing game.  The appropriate guess has always been to underexpose and rely on pulling shadows in post. The sensor is the sensor, sure, but relying purely on the metering values resulted in blown highlights all the time. The 10-R was better than the 10 in this regard, but the M11 has essentially eliminated the problem.