MindsEye Posted October 17, 2007 Share #1 Posted October 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi All, As part of my foray into the M8 world I ordered a 75mm Summarit. The other day I read on reidreviews.com something to the effect that the frame lines for 75mm on the M8 are virtually worthless (Sean- pardon my paraphrasing as this is just from memory and I was just skimming) I chose the 75 because FOV is similar to 100mm. Back in my RF film days I really liked the 90 and I also use a similar range frequently on my DSLRs. Can anyone convey to me their experience with using a 75mm on the M8 in terms of accuracy of the frame lines at various distances. AND any suggestions as to recommended finders if the built-in ones don't work well. One more thing- any feedback on the Voigtlander 75mm Heliar vs Summarit (if anyone has had their hands on one yet)? I liked what I saw with the 75 Heliar on reidreviews and am wondering if anyone can compare them. Does the Summarit draw like the Summicron? Thanks! Joel http://www.joelwolfson.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Hi MindsEye, Take a look here 75mm frame line accuracy?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
afineman Posted October 17, 2007 Share #2 Posted October 17, 2007 i find all of the framelines on the m8 to be worthless, i use them more as i guide and am trying to memorize how much over or under the lines the lenses actually are. i think leica really botched the viewfinder for this camera, at least the lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Brittenson Posted October 17, 2007 Share #3 Posted October 17, 2007 Can anyone convey to me their experience with using a 75mm on the M8 in terms of accuracy of the frame lines at various distances. Left and top use outer framelines. Right and bottom use inner. (Or was it the opposite? I forget.) It's not just about how much you get outside the lines, but the fact that the center is off - this is much worse than just getting a little extra outside. This makes it not a problem of framing but of composition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 17, 2007 Share #4 Posted October 17, 2007 The 75 framelines are the worst on the M8. The "waste" compared to the framelines at normal distances approaches 25%. There is a thread here where I tried to compare frameline accuracy at various distances with various focal lengths: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/31212-frameline-accuracy-comparison.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted October 17, 2007 Share #5 Posted October 17, 2007 Joel, The 75mm corner marks are the worst of all the lines in the M8, practically useless unless all your subjects are no further than 1 meter...... Here is one of the threads on the subject: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/30719-m8-frame-line-accuracy.html Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindsEye Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted October 17, 2007 The 75 framelines are the worst on the M8. The "waste" compared to the framelines at normal distances approaches 25%. There is a thread here where I tried to compare frameline accuracy at various distances with various focal lengths: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/31212-frameline-accuracy-comparison.html This is very useful information. What is interesting is that the symmetry of inaccuracy (Leica would love this term) is more or less even in the bottom left whereas the upper right is quite asymmetrical. Also when measuring (loosely) how far off the 75 is- it seems to be about 16 percent at medium to far distances which is close to the difference in focal length from the 90. Sooo- has anyone had better luck using the built-in framline for 90 while using the 75 beyond 2M? From looking at Carsten's tests my instinct would be to use the 90 frameline and line up with the bottom left inside of the framelines and then try to get a feel for what will happen to the right and top of the image captured. Bear in mind I still don't have my (backordered) M8 body to try this theory and initially I was considering changing my 75 Summarit order to a 90 but thanks to Carsten's frameline tests I can see I won't fare much better with the 90 since a lot of my work is beyond Leica's "ideal" 1M. Not to mention I would prefer the EFOV of the 75. I can see from previous posts that Leica is allegedly going to address all this frameline inaccuracy with a retrofit. I can only imagine how much that will cost. Since photography is my living I have to admit I have thought more than once about canceling my order based on the cost/benefit of the M8 and all its warts... Thanks to all of you for the valuable info thus far. Joel http://www.joelwolfson.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted October 17, 2007 Share #7 Posted October 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sooo- has anyone had better luck using the built-in framline for 90 while using the 75 beyond 2M? I doubt it. That would amount to idiocy because the 90 frame is even smaller than the already-too-small 75. Better to guage between the 75 and 50 frames, which fortuitously happen to appear simultaneously at all times. Bear in mind I still don't have my (backordered) M8 body Perhaps you should inform your stockist that the M8 hasn't been in a back-order situation since April. Or just buy one from one of the hundreds of stockists with plenty on-hand. I can see from previous posts that Leica is allegedly going to address all this frameline inaccuracy with a retrofit. Well unless one of the private reviewers/beta-testers knows something they can't divulge, Leica haven't said anything about it since Stefan Daniel acknowledged it might be feasible. Unless the finder is completely redesigned so the framelines can expand and contract whilst the lens is focussed, any retrofit will simply render the framelines more accurate at a farther distance, but more apt to cut off parts of the subject at close-focus. I can only imagine how much that will cost. If the minor operation required to upgrade the first-year M7 finder to second-year/MP specification is any guide, I suspect somewhere in the neighbourhood of $250-300 American. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 17, 2007 Share #8 Posted October 17, 2007 If they fix the framelines, though, the center should still be, um, in the center though That would be an improvement for the 75. From a purely practical and informal perspective, no actual measuring, the 75 needs the most chimping in my experience (which matches with what others are saying). It is off. I find the 90 to be most conservative (thankfully, there's more there than you think at most distances), though the center seems ok, and the 50 is pretty much ok for the way I use it. The 35 is also alright; the 24 fills the viewfinder. Wider than that a finder is better for critical composition, though I've used the 21mm length so much on the M8 my eye knows where things are in relation to the framelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted October 17, 2007 Share #9 Posted October 17, 2007 I can't disagree that the 75 framelines are under-sized a bit too agressively (perhaps so as not to appear too close to the 50's, which might dissuade someone from buying a 75 in addition ) but I'm puzzled by the singling-out of the 75 frames as being off-centre. They are centred within the 50mm framelines, so if one is off-centre then they both must be. In addition, visually, with lenses set at infinity, the rangefinder patch appears centred in both the overall finder as well as the bright-line for each lens including the 75. How can the 75 be uniquely off-centre? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindsEye Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted October 17, 2007 Sooo- has anyone had better luck using the built-in framline for 90 while using the 75 beyond 2M? From looking at Carsten's tests my instinct would be to use the 90 frameline and line up with the bottom left inside of the framelines and then try to get a feel for what will happen to the right and top of the image captured. Sorry folks- my bad. I meant to go the other way and say the 50mm frame lines- actually it would be somewhere between the 50 and 75 framelines. I'm not sure why my mind was working backwards. Maybe the coffee hadn't taken effect yet this morning. It sucks that the center is off which is what I'm gathering from the feedback here. Cheers, Joel http://www.joelwolfson.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted October 17, 2007 Share #11 Posted October 17, 2007 Joel, Yes, the 75 framelines are tighter than what the lens captures but I do not find it a particular hinderance to my use of the 75 lens (Cron, in my case). I think the differences are both learnable and immaterial. I do not mind capturing a bit more than the framelines suggest. Even if Leica came up with a "fix," I would not bother sending the camera in to take advantage of it, even if free. Philip Kozloff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindsEye Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted October 17, 2007 Well unless one of the private reviewers/beta-testers knows something they can't divulge, Leica haven't said anything about it since Stefan Daniel acknowledged it might be feasible. Unless the finder is completely redesigned so the framelines can expand and contract whilst the lens is focussed, any retrofit will simply render the framelines more accurate at a farther distance, but more apt to cut off parts of the subject at close-focus. The speculated retrofit I got from a previous post on this issue: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/25682-good-news-leica-about-frame-line.html I believe Stefan Daniel's letter is in the first post. Perhaps you should inform your stockist that the M8 hasn't been in a back-order situation since April. Or just buy one from one of the hundreds of stockists with plenty on-hand. A simple matter of my dealer of choice being out of the black bodies- they are on order with Leica NJ who estimated 2-3 weeks and I really don't mind waiting. If the minor operation required to upgrade the first-year M7 finder to second-year/MP specification is any guide, I suspect somewhere in the neighbourhood of $250-300 American. I hope you're right about this. Cheers, Joel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted October 17, 2007 Share #13 Posted October 17, 2007 I think that many long-time M users will find the inaccuracy of the frame lines objectionable. I have been an M user for over thirty years, shooting mainly slides where framing accuracy was critical. Never have I seen such discrepancies between what I saw in the finder and what ended up on film. Granted, it used to take some time between the moment the picture was taken and when the slides were in the photographer’s hands. Still - I don’t ever remember saying “that was not in the shot when I took it”. Now, with chimping and instant review, the discrepancy is immediately noticeable. I would have a new set of frame lines installed in my M8 as soon as that option became available and will be quite upset when I have to pay for it (and I probably will have to......) Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 18, 2007 Share #14 Posted October 18, 2007 Face it, no RF camera has ever had, or can have, the framing accuracy that an SLR camera can have – in theory. My own experience was that Nikon screens e.g. did show quite a bit less that landed on the film. (The official excuse was that this compensated for the loss from the slide mounts! It's not a bug, it's a feature, see!) The only SLR I know off with a 100% finder was the Olympus OM line. RF frames cannot cope with the change of field that you get when focusing a lens, so they are usually adjusted for the worst case – the near focusing limit. Now were you there when there was no adjustment for parallax? THAT was fun! Get used to the fact that a) frames are guides only, and what you get is what you see, and then some. It would have been worse the other way round. The old man from the Age of the Leica IIIa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 18, 2007 Share #15 Posted October 18, 2007 Nobody outside Solms knows a shit about what the Sumarit lenses will do, as yet. Nobody has had a chance to evaluate them, deliveries are slated to begun in November. I do not think they will be bad. I don't want to strech further than that. The old man from the Age of the f:1.5 Summarit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 18, 2007 Share #16 Posted October 18, 2007 RF frames cannot cope with the change of field that you get when focusing a lens Koni-Omega (the only thing I didn't like about that camera was that the magazines wouldn't fit in my jacket pocket)... and no doubt there have been others. Now were you there when there was no adjustment for parallax? THAT was fun! I was ... and it wasn't nearly as much fun as adjusting a VIDOM for change of field, parallax and orientation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted October 18, 2007 Share #17 Posted October 18, 2007 I can't disagree that the 75 framelines are under-sized a bit too agressively (perhaps so as not to appear too close to the 50's, which might dissuade someone from buying a 75 in addition ) but I'm puzzled by the singling-out of the 75 frames as being off-centre. They are centred within the 50mm framelines, so if one is off-centre then they both must be. In addition, visually, with lenses set at infinity, the rangefinder patch appears centred in both the overall finder as well as the bright-line for each lens including the 75. How can the 75 be uniquely off-centre? Vinay-- You're right of course. It's just in use, the 75 lines seem so much more off than the 50 (or again, for my pattern of use). What I've found astounding coming from the dSLR world is just how quickly my brain adjusted to rangefinder--and M8--use. I use the 21 elmarit so much that even though I can't see the whole frame I pretty much know before I shoot what I'm going to get. Maybe it's just me, but the 75 just takes some pretty wild adjustments within the framelines while the 50 doesn't. Perhaps if I used the 75 more it wouldn't bother me quite so much... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.