Laowa 12-24mm f5.6 for Leica-M

[pgk]

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5 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Begging to differ with you. Laowa is just a Chinese company with Chinese style QC and optics definitely one notch below the level of Voigtlander, Zeiss or Leica - in terms of sharpness and optical flaws. I own all of the mentioned brands (Voigtlander, Zeiss, Leica, Laowa), some for Leica M, some MFT, some full frame and one Laowa for Fujifilm GFX and can definitely stand by my claim. But they do try harder each year. Expecting awesomeness soon. Their biggest undoing as mentioned before is the flawed quality control for lens tilt and decentering in brand new lenses straight from assembly. It is my first hand personal experience, plus It is all over the internet.
Still excited for each new item though as they are truly an innovator (10-18 full frame mirrorless zoom, zero-D UWA optical calculations, UWA for medium format etc.)

Many Sony lenses are made in China and they are on a par with lenses from any other maker. I think that what you are possibly trying to say is that lower prices often suggest that costs have been cut and this can be true of very cheap lenses but not always. QC is costly and reducing it may well result in more variation but then again Sony lenses are far cheaper than Leica and can be very, very good. I have the 21SEM and Sony 20/1.8 and would be hard pushed to argue that either is anything other than extremely good. Their price difference is substantial.

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22 minutes ago, LarsHP said:

What it means to me is that a manufacturer that makes products noone else have made is innovative and don't just copy what others have done before. It puts Laowa in a different category than the "China-copy" category that many people seems to think every Chinese manufacturer belongs to. 

Hehe nothing personal  but young people sometimes feel that everything new is beautiful while old fogies like me tend to believe that the best soup is made in old pots . Just kidding. 

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, LarsHP said:

They make lenses with parameters no other lens manufacturer has made before, which also is a statement by itself. 

Yes, I have made that statement myself and even quoted their innovative lenses and lens lines.

[Al Brown]

50 minutes ago, pgk said:

Many Sony lenses are made in China

I beg to differ with you, of the 6 Sony FE lenses I have including the 20/1.8 which is also the one you have ALL are made in Thailand.

 

53 minutes ago, pgk said:

I think that what you are possibly trying to say is that lower prices often suggest that costs have been cut and this can be true of very cheap lenses

Yes, I am also saying that. It comes down to three things: the final price, the size of the factory/production line AND the will to have strict QC or not.
The most notorious brand for the biggest QC issues is SLR Magic. There's a 50-50 chance you get a bad copy.
 

[pgk]

13 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

I beg to differ with you, of the 6 Sony FE lenses I have including the 20/1.8 which is also the one you have ALL are made in Thailand.

I have 5 - 2 Chinese made, 1 Thai, 1 Japanese and 1 unmarked as to country of origin. The country of origin has no realtionship with optical quality.

[Al Brown]

Even the DPReview guys have gotten a decentered copy of Laowa 12-24/5.6 for the test, evident at 24mm wide open (Chris mentions the lens' "serious issues" at 8:02 in the video). The right side of the frame is visibly softer. This is the thing I was talking about. Great products, not so great QC.
 

 

[pgk]

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2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Even the DPReview guys have gotten a decentered copy of Laowa 12-24/5.6 for the test, evident at 24mm wide open (Chris mentions the lens' "serious issues" at 8:02 in the video). The right side of the frame is visibly softer. This is the thing I was talking about. Great products, not so great QC.

I have had a Leica made M lens with the same (irreparable) problem.

[Al Brown]

8 hours ago, pgk said:

I have had a Leica made M lens with the same (irreparable) problem.

Yes, Leica lenses suffer from that too. I have had the 75 summarit with a similar problem. And the Voigtlander 12/5.6mm. The former with decentered lens, the latter with front lens tilt, both brand new from the factory. They were both successfully repaired, collimated and microadjusted by an expert in Vienna and are now 100%. I have since sold the 75 and bought the Mandler 75 lux, but the 12mm Voigtlander is still getting major use.

[J S H]

Maybe I got lucky, but I have a stellar copy of this lens. It’s very sharp across the frame wide open at every focal length. It’s also perfectly parfocal across the entire zoom range, right at the infinity hard stop. It’s not the fastest wide-angle I own, but probably the most dependable. I never stop it down past F8 and it never disappoints. it’s also an excellent lens in Infrared. Sharp from corner to corner. It remains parfocal in IR, but with a slightly different focus point. Here’s a nighttime shot with the M11, 75 seconds, f/5.6, ISO 64. I’ll try to upload some IR shots at some point. 

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[J S H]

Another shot with this lens on the M11. 14mm, F8.

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[J S H]

Same framing, M11 with Kolari 720 IR Filter. 20 seconds, F8.

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[Al Brown]

On 11/16/2024 at 4:02 AM, J S H said:

Maybe I got lucky, but I have a stellar copy of this lens.

Yes, it is as it should be, a keeper. 

[Al Brown]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:56 PM, LarsHP said:

Regarding Laowa versus Voigtländer, Bastian Kratzke at PhillipReeve.net has tested several lenses of both brands. In his review of the Laowa 9mm f/5.6 RL FF he said that it was not only wider than the 10mm Voigtländer, but also sharper, including in the corners.

After having tested both mentioned lenses I can confirm. But I would also like to stress out that this is a very big exception in the Laowa line. Voigtlander still beats all Chinese lenses in build quality though. Their production quality control otoh has been a random hit and miss lately, I have seen way too many brand new decentered and miscalibrated  Voigtlander lenses in person.

[J S H]

I would agree on the Laowa 9mm 5.6. I bought one and tested it against my Voigtlander 10mm - the Laowa was clearly the better lens. I sold the Voigtlander and never regretted it. Regarding Voigtlander quality control - I have purchased 10-12 Voigtlander lenses in the last 4 years, mostly new from Camera Quest. I only had to send one back, a 28mm f/2 which didn't quite hit infinity focus on the M11. Generally though, I personally haven't seen any unexpected quality issues from either Voigtlander or Laowa.

All of my Laowa lenses seem to be good copies and sharp to the corners. The 15mm F/2 in M mount is another great lens. I tested it against a Zeiss ZM 15mm f/2.8 and the Laowa won hands down. This 12-24 is a gem and a solid performer. Without the filter holder, it is approximately 20% larger than the WATE, but with a MUCH wider zoom range. The WATE is prone to de-centering as well, my first copy was a dud. I sold my 2nd and best WATE before I bought the Laowa, but I am pretty familiar with the image quality and I think both lenses would be equal at F8, with the Laowa having a much more versatile zoom range. I would love to see a test between good copies of each lens. 

[LarsHP]

38 minutes ago, J S H said:

I would agree on the Laowa 9mm 5.6. I bought one and tested it against my Voigtlander 10mm - the Laowa was clearly the better lens. I sold the Voigtlander and never regretted it. Regarding Voigtlander quality control - I have purchased 10-12 Voigtlander lenses in the last 4 years, mostly new from Camera Quest. I only had to send one back, a 28mm f/2 which didn't quite hit infinity focus on the M11. Generally though, I personally haven't seen any unexpected quality issues from either Voigtlander or Laowa.

All of my Laowa lenses seem to be good copies and sharp to the corners. The 15mm F/2 in M mount is another great lens. I tested it against a Zeiss ZM 15mm f/2.8 and the Laowa won hands down. This 12-24 is a gem and a solid performer. Without the filter holder, it is approximately 20% larger than the WATE, but with a MUCH wider zoom range. The WATE is prone to de-centering as well, my first copy was a dud. I sold my 2nd and best WATE before I bought the Laowa, but I am pretty familiar with the image quality and I think both lenses would be equal at F8, with the Laowa having a much more versatile zoom range. I would love to see a test between good copies of each lens. 

I remember seeing Bastian Kratzke had a WATE he was considering buying, but it was bad in three of the corners, so naturally he returned it. My 28mm Summicron-M Asph II never became properly good, even after two visits to Wetzlar.

[BastianK]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb LarsHP:

I remember seeing Bastian Kratzke had a WATE he was considering buying, but it was bad in three of the corners, so naturally he returned it. My 28mm Summicron-M Asph II never became properly good, even after two visits to Wetzlar.

Yes that is correct.
There are also too many reports talking about mechanical issues with the WATE for me to try and find a better one.

The Laowa 9mm 5.6 has better build quality than any Leica lens I ever had in my hands - except for the non-equidistant aperture clicks.
The 15mm 2.0 is on the same level and also fixed that.

Generally their M-mount lenses are more expensive than those for other mounts but in most cases I also found them to be better made.

I am also amazed by how many people complain about the build quality of Chinese lenses yet at the same time accept Leica's crappy aperture rings.

Edited November 17, 2024 by BastianK

[J S H]

Another shot with the Laowa 12-24 on the M11. 10 minutes at F8, ISO 64, 20mm

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[J S H]

Same framing as above. Laowa 12-24, 20mm at F8. Kolari 720 IR filter, 20 seconds. 

 

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Edited November 23, 2024 by J S H
Corrected exposure info

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Hallo,

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