"Bare" 21mm f/2.8 ASPH on M10 sensor!

[adan]

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Putting this in the M10 section since it has as much to do with the M10 sensor (and coding, and legacy film wides on digital, and "Italian Flag syndrome," yada yada) as it does with this 21mm as such.

Local store has a used 21 Elmarit-M ASPH available for a very good price - but it is not 6-bit coded. And for various reasons I won't detail unless asked, I'm tired of sending lenses to Leica for the 6-bit upgrade - and/or menu-diving (and remembering to menu-dive) with every lens change.

So I wondered just what happens with this lens if it is not correctly ID'd for the camera. Here are two pictures of a scene that should reveal "Italian Flag" magenta or cyan stains on the long ends of the picture, if present.

One is with the lens correctly ID'd in the menus ("Elmarit-M 1:28/21 ASPH") - the other uses my "default" lens-menu setting for my only other uncoded lens ("Tele-Elmar 1:4/135").

I don't see (or measure numerically) any significant red-cyan color vignetting on the sides at all, even with this 21mm super-wide ID'd as a 135mm lens (!!) There is, of course, a bit more overall monochromatic vignetting (darker corners) in the "uncorrected" version.

And that either says something about the effectiveness of the "tall, wider-acceptance-angle" microlenses on Leica's advanced CMOS sensors . Or something about the optical characteristics of the 21mm f/2.8 ASPH specifically (at least compared to my pre-ASPH). Or both.

Anyway - posting this both as a check on my own eyesight (or my screen - anyone else see any color vignetting?) - and as an informative test result (if you don't).

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[jonoslack]

HI Andy

I don't know for sure, but I think that Leica have largely dealt with 'Italian Flag' colour casts with the microlenses - I didn't have any uncoded lenses, but I've been playing with 2 recently (and I'm hopeless at remembering to menu dive). Vignetting is an issue (more with the M10-R), but I've not seen any colour casts.

Mind you - your scene is probably kinder than a drab grey british autumn sky!

All the best

Jono

[IkarusJohn]

I don’t see any colour cast in these images, Andy.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some scenes are worse than others - related to UV incidence?

[adan]

Denver ranks pretty high in UV index (26% higher than sea level - 1.6km less atmosphere up here to filter it ) About 5.5 when I made the tests.

[chris_tribble]

I’ve used an uncoded cv 15 mkiii and had no problems with any national flags.  I think Jono has nailed it…

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, adan said:

Denver ranks pretty high in UV index (26% higher than sea level - 1.6km less atmosphere up here to filter it ) About 5.5 when I made the tests.

I was thinking about the angle of incidence, but I may be muddling polarisation.  My 15 Distagon was a shocker, but it was inconsistent.  I never worked out how and why.  I used it on the Monochrom, then tired of it.  But for the Italian Flag, it wsa an excellent lens.

[adan]

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1 hour ago, chris_tribble said:

I’ve used an uncoded cv 15 mkiii and had no problems with any national flags.  I think Jono has nailed it…

Although the cv 15 mk. III even worked well when I tried it uncoded on an M9 - the whole point of the III was to be more like a "miniature retrofocus SLR lens" and more digital-compatable  than a hyper-compact RF lens (like the cv 15 I & II).

I've tried the Mk. 1 cv 15 - and a 21 Super-Angulon f/3.4 I stumbled across - sometime in my M10 era (past 4.5 years) and they both still produced notable magenta/cyan edges. But those are the extremes of the extremes.

But anyway, thanks to everyone for helping me make sure I was avoiding "confirmation bias."

[JonPB]

Well: yes, the colors are different. Not that I'd notice without the side-by-side, but there's a change there in color that varies across the frame. The red or the brick, the blue of the sign, and the cloud shading are all different.

The 21 Elmarit Asph is one of my favorite lenses and I've gone to lengths to make the most of it. When it comes to both color and luminance shading, lens-camera-aperture specific correction is hard to beat. Leica's in-camera correction is fantastic for get-the-job-done shooting, but maximum technical quality requires manual correction. (I use RawTherapee with a sequence of calibration shots made through a flash umbrella; the thickness of white plastic added enough luminance vignetting to be an issue. I'd prefer Capture One if I owned a current version. No idea about anything else.)

I did "code" my 21mm with permanent marker a few years ago and that has worked reliably since, although I neither use/test that often nor change lenses frequently. So, buying uncoded doesn't mean forgoing automatic features.

The main downside is that if you try to sell it on, the next buyer will have the same concerns.

Also worth checking: focus accuracy. My two Leica 21mm lenses both back-focused dramatically. One I could write off as a beat-up copy; the other, complete with Leica repair certificate, had no such excuse. But they differed by exactly -- precisely -- the same distance from the scale as each other. So, perhaps not an isolated thing: film era wide lenses focusing in the film rather than on its surface. I have no issues now, but it was a frustration and would be worth checking before buying. A plant/chair/post at 2m would show this clearly for me; not a small thing, not a hard test.

Once you get the basics down, though, that 21mm Elmarit Asph has magic. Worth the hassle twice over, in my bag.

[Guest]

Has "andy" gone to the dark side of those modern fangled aspherical high contrast pinkish type lenses? 

I hope walter is ok with this?🙂

[adan]

Let's just say that I'm - reviewing the situation. Given the opportunity of a sample to try out.

The last time I actually shot a 21 ASPH in person was about 2004, when my sensor was "Velvia." A lot of water under the bridge since then as regards color rendering controls and DR in digital, compared to slides. We'll see what happens.

[adan]

On 10/12/2021 at 7:55 PM, steve 1959 said:

Has "andy" gone to the dark side of those modern fangled aspherical high contrast pinkish type lenses? 

...and ultimately, no. Kept the Mandler 21.

My evaluation from 2004-ish still holds: although the ASPH is "bluer" overall on digital (M10) rather than "pinker" as such. The ASPH needs an extra 800°K added in WB (or approximately an 81A filter) - and still doesn't render all colors quite as well (to my taste) as the Mandler.

The ASPH makes it noticably harder to hold highlight and shadow tonal detail in the same exposure under stark, cloudless Colorado skies and lighting.

And the ASPH has a bit more resolution over a wider area outside of the center at f/2.8-8 - but the Mandler has better resolution at the center at f/2.8-4 (and equal center resolution otherwise).

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, adan said:

...and ultimately, no. Kept the Mandler 21.

My evaluation from 2004-ish still holds: although the ASPH is "bluer" overall on digital (M10) rather than "pinker" as such. The ASPH needs an extra 800°K added in WB (or approximately an 81A filter) - and still doesn't render all colors quite as well (to my taste) as the Mandler.

The ASPH makes it noticably harder to hold highlight and shadow tonal detail in the same exposure under stark, cloudless Colorado skies and lighting.

And the ASPH has a bit more resolution over a wider area outside of the center at f/2.8-8 - but the Mandler has better resolution at the center at f/2.8-4 (and equal center resolution otherwise).

Must admit i am pleased that you came to that conclusion especially after i read marco cavinas wonderful review of the mandler elmarit  21mm.

I have been pleased with my 28mm V2 elmarit especially its rendition of colour  but have kept a look out for a version 3 or 4 to give me better edge performance for my landscape stuff.

Would you still go for version 3 now ahead of version 4?  they both turn up at reasonable cost at reputable dealers sometimes.

 

[adan]

Actually, I just snagged a 6-bit-coded 28mm Elmarit v.4 a couple of weeks ago.

It's late, so the short version is I am keeping this particular v.4 and putting the v.3 I got in early 2020 up for sale.

My first impression is that the 28 v.4 has somewhat higher global contrast than the v.3 (but not as much as the 28 Elmarit ASPH), color that generally fits in very nicely with the Mandler 21 pre-ASPH (less pink than the ASPH), and a somewhat wider area of peak sharpness than the v.3 at f/2.8 (not yet sure about stopped down). As well as being more compact (but 10g heavier) than the v.3.

But before I say more, I want to contrast and compare my images from all four 28 f/2.8s (v.2 to ASPH) over the past 24 months one more time. Just shot a nightime event at the gallery which should be revealing.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, adan said:

Actually, I just snagged a 6-bit-coded 28mm Elmarit v.4 a couple of weeks ago.

It's late, so the short version is I am keeping this particular v.4 and putting the v.3 I got in early 2020 up for sale.

My first impression is that the 28 v.4 has somewhat higher global contrast than the v.3 (but not as much as the 28 Elmarit ASPH), color that generally fits in very nicely with the Mandler 21 pre-ASPH (less pink than the ASPH), and a somewhat wider area of peak sharpness than the v.3 at f/2.8 (not yet sure about stopped down). As well as being more compact (but 10g heavier) than the v.3.

But before I say more, I want to contrast and compare my images from all four 28 f/2.8s (v.2 to ASPH) over the past 24 months one more time. Just shot a nightime event at the gallery which should be revealing.

Look forward to your findings and feel the v 4 maybe a good companion to my v 2 especially for landscape pics.