M10 Monochrome v. SL2

[John Smith]

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I remember reading a post where someone had compared his 75mm Noctilux images made with the M10R to ones made with the SL2. He did portraits, and said that the SL2 portraits rendered better than the M10R’s. He guessed it might have been due to the SL2’s higher megapixel count. That got me wondering about a comparison between the M10 Monochrome and SL2. Has anyone done such a comparison? If so, what’d you find out? I’ve got both cameras and can do a comparison but thought I’d ask first. 

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[Akaki]

I don't have M10 R, but with M10 Monochrome and Noctilux 0.95.  if you compare SL2. with M 10 Monochrome, M 10 M is much much better in Rendering.

I Have Bought. And the other thing is that for SL2 you have to use adaptor for M Lenses. M Lenses its not a part of the SL 2 Body...

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Akaki

[Stuart Richardson]

I think these things are more personal than scientific. "Rendering" is the kind of phrase that is meaningless across two different people. One person thinks the rendering is "great" another thinks it is "terrible". Personally, I have the SL2 and S3, which shares sensor technology with the M10R and M10 Monochrome. They are very different sensors. I prefer the SL2 sensor's rendering of fine detail, texture, dynamic range*, color and high iso noise. The sensor in the S3 has much better highlight recovery and better long exposure performance, but also much more banding when underexposed shadows are lifted. The S3 sensor is one where "expose to the right" is more true than in any other digital camera I have used. The SL2, on the other hand, is better shot like slide film...underexposing to protect highlights, but shadows have a lot of recovery. In an monochrome body, I think the biggest difference would be the difference in the rendering of detail and the wider tonal range of the Monochrome. I would say that from my perspective, I would never trade an SL2 for an M10M or M10R. Maybe I would add one of those cameras, but I prefer the look of the SL2 to any current Leica camera I have seen.

*when I say I prefer the dynamic range of the SL2, I am not saying it has more. I am saying I prefer what it does with it...the DR presents as smaller in the opened files, but the shadow and deep shadow detail is cleaner with film like grain. The S3 has a wider DR and incredible highlight recovery (particular with Cobalt repro/flat profiles), but the baseline noise has more color noise and banding than the SL2 sensor. Basically, the SL2 has a lower apparent noise floor, while the S3 can take overexposure better.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Jeff S]

15 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think these things are more personal than scientific. "Rendering" is the kind of phrase that is meaningless across two different people.

+1.  Not to mention the output goal (screen/print? size? etc.) as well as one’s shooting and processing skills.

The OP owns both cameras and should reach his own conclusions.

I have both cameras and have not been limited by either for producing fine prints if and when I do my job well.  The shooting/workflow experience, however, is vastly different and that has even greater impact for me.

Jeff

Edited September 18, 2021 by Jeff S

[Akaki]

Ok, I am agree this is a personal think. But I was talking about Noctilux and different body SL2 & M, not a sensor. 

[trickness]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:40 AM, John Smith said:

I remember reading a post where someone had compared his 75mm Noctilux images made with the M10R to ones made with the SL2. He did portraits, and said that the SL2 portraits rendered better than the M10R’s. He guessed it might have been due to the SL2’s higher megapixel count. That got me wondering about a comparison between the M10 Monochrome and SL2. Has anyone done such a comparison? If so, what’d you find out? I’ve got both cameras and can do a comparison but thought I’d ask first. 

Let’s not forget the SL2 has IBIS

[John Smith]

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1 hour ago, trickness said:

Let’s not forget the SL2 has IBIS

True, but the Monochrome's ISO goes so high it doesn't need it.

[trickness]

28 minutes ago, John Smith said:

True, but the Monochrome's ISO goes so high it doesn't need it.

The two have nothing to do with each other. Note that the Q2M also has IBIS. It is for image stability at slower shutter speeds. And it enables you to shoot handheld without jacking up the ISO and increasing noise. ISO is not a substitute for IBIS.

[insideline]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

The two have nothing to do with each other. Note that the Q2M also has IBIS. It is for image stability at slower shutter speeds. And it enables you to shoot handheld without jacking up the ISO and increasing noise. ISO is not a substitute for IBIS.

Not to be argumentative in the least, but my experience with the M10M between 12,000 and 25,000 ISO the files are incredibly clean so I am able too shoot with a high enough shutter speed to negate movement thus not needing IBIS in the M10M, so with this particular body it is a substitute for IBIS. Very different cameras and both have their strengths, but when just speaking of IBIS the M10M is so capable that it does not need it, plus if you have shot with an M body for a long time you get a feel for how to hold the body steady even at low shutter speeds. 

[trickness]

39 minutes ago, insideline said:

Not to be argumentative in the least, but my experience with the M10M between 12,000 and 25,000 ISO the files are incredibly clean so I am able too shoot with a high enough shutter speed to negate movement thus not needing IBIS in the M10M, so with this particular body it is a substitute for IBIS. Very different cameras and both have their strengths, but when just speaking of IBIS the M10M is so capable that it does not need it, plus if you have shot with an M body for a long time you get a feel for how to hold the body steady even at low shutter speeds. 

The original post mentioned that the cameras rendered differently. This is of course in part due to the fact that they are completely different styles of camera, different sensors, different lenses. But the fact that one of the cameras has IBIS could be a contributing factor as to why the photographs look different, especially at low shutter speeds and with reasonable ISO values. There are plenty of posts here with people theorizing that the M10R is more subject to motion blur because of the high resolution of the camera AND The fact that it does not have ibis. I’m not validating that one way or the other, to be clear.

This is not a debate about whether or not high ISO Values in a monochrom body negate the need for image stabilization (and if it was, why did Leica include ibis in the Q2M?)  It was simply an observation (in response to the original question) that IBIS in the SL2 may be a contributing factor to the different look between the two cameras, all else being equal, which in reality is kind of moot because the two cameras are chalk and cheese. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by trickness

[John Smith]

2 hours ago, trickness said:

The two have nothing to do with each other. Note that the Q2M also has IBIS. It is for image stability at slower shutter speeds. And it enables you to shoot handheld without jacking up the ISO and increasing noise. ISO is not a substitute for IBIS.

Yes they do. The MM's ISO goes so high without any appreciable noise that you don't need the handicap of slower shutter speeds. The Q2M's lens stabilization is a just a bonus because it was there with the original Q.

[John Smith]

8 minutes ago, trickness said:

The original post mentioned that the cameras rendered differently. This is of course in part due to the fact that they are completely different styles of camera, different sensors, different lenses. But the fact that one of the cameras has IBIS could be a contributing factor as to why the photographs look different, especially at low shutter speeds and with reasonable ISO values. There are plenty of posts here with people theorizing that the M10R is more subject to motion blur because of the high resolution of the camera AND The fact that it does not have ibis. I’m not validating that one way or the other, to be clear.

This is not a debate about whether or not high ISO Values in a monochrom body negate the need for image stabilization (and if it was, why did Leica include ibis in the Q2M?)  It was simply an observation (in response to the original question) that IBIS in the SL2 may be a contributing factor to the different look between the two cameras, all else being equal, which in reality is kind of moot because the two cameras are chalk and cheese. 

My original question didn't have anything to do with motion blur. It had to do with the fact that the MM has 41 MP without a color array and the SL2 has 47 MP with one. 

[trickness]

1 hour ago, John Smith said:

Yes they do. The MM's ISO goes so high without any appreciable noise that you don't need the handicap of slower shutter speeds. The Q2M's lens stabilization is a just a bonus because it was there with the original Q.

I said was that there may be a difference in how the cameras rendered because of ibis - the SL2 has it, the M10M doesn’t - this is a fact, not an opinion. The fact that the cameras have completely different sensors and one has image stabilization probably means a lot more than the completely negligible seven megapixel difference in resolution.

If you wanna have an argument with yourself from here on in about ISO or ibis or anything else, go right ahead. I honestly don’t understand why you posted the question to begin with, especially as you seem to have reached some kind of conclusion as to the answer. I will leave you to it with my best regards.

Edited November 23, 2021 by trickness

[John Smith]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:53 PM, trickness said:

I said was that there may be a difference in how the cameras rendered because of ibis - the SL2 has it, the M10M doesn’t - this is a fact, not an opinion. The fact that the cameras have completely different sensors and one has image stabilization probably means a lot more than the completely negligible seven megapixel difference in resolution.

If you wanna have an argument with yourself from here on in about ISO or ibis or anything else, go right ahead. I honestly don’t understand why you posted the question to begin with, especially as you seem to have reached some kind of conclusion as to the answer. I will leave you to it with my best regards.

I haven't reached any decision as to the answer. Hence, the post. The fact that the cameras have different sensors, different MP counts, and one has a color array is the reason I asked the question. IBIS is irrelevant. 

I didn't ask the question in order to have an argument with myself. Why would you have such a thin skin about this?

[trickness]

1 minute ago, John Smith said:

I haven't reached any decision as to the answer. Hence, the post. The fact that the cameras have different sensors, different MP counts, and one has a color array is the reason I asked the question. IBIS is irrelevant. 

I didn't ask the question in order to have an argument with myself. Why would you have such a thin skin about this?

It amuses me when people post questions seeking the opinions of others only to tell them their opinion is irrelevant. Carry on

[John Smith]

On 11/27/2021 at 7:52 AM, trickness said:

It amuses me when people post questions seeking the opinions of others only to tell them their opinion is irrelevant. Carry on

I found that David Farkas and Josh Lehrer answered the question on one of their YouTube episodes. They didn't mention IBIS.

Edited November 28, 2021 by John Smith

[trickness]

33 minutes ago, John Smith said:

I found that David Farkas and Josh Lehrer answered the question on one of their YouTube episodes. They didn't mention IBIS.

John with respect: you posted a completely vague question about a friend of yours liking an image more from one camera than the other. He didn’t mention if he used the same lens settings, shot the photographs at the same time under the same lighting conditions, or what degree of competency your friend has as a photographer. Not sure how anyone here could reasonably guess why he likes one image or camera over the other. You could just have easily said “ my friend has two rocks, and he likes one rock more than the other”. And I could’ve responded “well one rock is more shiny than the other” - and you would respond, “shininess has nothing to do with it”.

If he shot two images at a very slow shutter speed and one of the cameras has IBS, it would certainly be a contributing factor to image quality. But being as you have posted absolutely no information about the images, anyone responding can only guess. The Leica Miami guys have said in numerous webcasts that the seven megapixel difference between these sensors is negligible in terms of image quality. And they have also spoken about the benefits of IBIS in the SL2 and Q2 platforms. 

Plus you yourself have both cameras in question, correct? Not sure what answer or information you are looking for here. You could go take two pictures yourself on the cameras you own and post your thoughts. I don’t know how anyone could possibly guess what your friend likes or why, and whether or not seven megapixels or IBIS have anything to do with it. Why don’t you take the two camera bodies you have and go shoot some photographs under the same conditions with the same lens and post your findings. That would be interesting.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by trickness