From M8 to M6

[valtof]

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Hi dear LUF members,

 

I entered the M world by the digital door and after 6 months of M8 intensive use, I got amazing results.

However, something has never stopped tickling me: shooting some rolls again…

My dealer in Paris kindly lent me a regular M6 for test purpose until next week.

I did my first B&W roll and gave it to my lab which has an attractive solution :

dev + scan of all the shots (18 Mb, Kodak HR500) for “only” 20 euros.

 

I would be happy if some of you could comment the image quality I obtained,

as regard to the choice of film (Fuji Superia 400), the quality of scanning, etc...

 

As it was for test purpose, I used two "opposite" lenses, a CV12mm and a pre-ASPH Summilux 50mm.

I’ve chosen two examples and each have a 100% crop (no sharpening, no noise reduction).

 

As far as I’m concerned, I’m quite satisfied even if a bit disappointed with the CV12 that seems to show some

strange fringing on some areas (see crop detail).

May be the scan quality is the reason… or may be I was expecting too much

compared to the amazing sharpness and detail you get with a… M8 !

 

OK folks, that’s it.

Any comment, opinion, advice are really welcome and needed to make up my mind.

 

Cheers

.

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[Joop van Heijgen]

Hi dear LUF members,

 

I entered the M world by the digital door and after 6 months of M8 intensive use, I got amazing results.

However, something has never stopped tickling me: shooting some rolls again…

My dealer in Paris kindly lent me a regular M6 for test purpose until next week.

I did my first B&W roll and gave it to my lab which has an attractive solution :

dev + scan of all the shots (18 Mb, Kodak HR500) for “only” 20 euros.

 

I would be happy if some of you could comment the image quality I obtained,

as regard to the choice of film (Fuji Superia 400), the quality of scanning, etc...

 

As it was for test purpose, I used two "opposite" lenses, a CV12mm and a pre-ASPH Summilux 50mm.

I’ve chosen two examples and each have a 100% crop (no sharpening, no noise reduction).

 

As far as I’m concerned, I’m quite satisfied even if a bit disappointed with the CV12 that seems to show some

strange fringing on some areas (see crop detail).

May be the scan quality is the reason… or may be I was expecting too much

compared to the amazing sharpness and detail you get with a… M8 !

 

OK folks, that’s it.

Any comment, opinion, advice are really welcome and needed to make up my mind.

 

Cheers

.

 

Making a good print is not too easy compared with digital photography!

 

Take some lessons for film photography and dark room technics and you will see that film is still the best !

[valtof]

Take some lessons for film photography and dark room technics and you will see that film is still the best !

 

Hi Joop,

Thanks for your reply even if that kind of statement won't help me at all.

I began photography 20 years ago with Exacta bodies and Angénnieux Lenses and was more often in the dark room of my (architecture) school than in the class room...

 

What I'm expecting from acknowledged people here is more :

 

- Is these shots seem to be (technically) good ? Is this M6 seems OK, its cell accurate, the RF well adjusted, etc... ;

- Is the scans seems to be fair enough for general purpose and what extra quality could I expect with a best scanner except from this mid-resolution (18 Mb) ?

- Is the "fringing" I see on the shot taken with the CV12 seems normal, abnormal or due to scanning quality ?

- Is the shot taken with the Summilux seems as sharp as I can expect from such an extraordinary fast lens (the strange lady is taken wide open of course) ;

- Etc...

 

I did this roll (38 shots) very quickly (one hour) for test purpose only even if I tried to make "real condition" photos that is : street, difficult subject (people I don't know), available light and back light, etc... instead of very easy well illuminated bunches of flowers...

 

You get it Joop ?

[Photoskeptic]

What you are seeing are digital artifacts. This is what happens to good film shots when they are poorly scanned. Most likely a problem of not enough scanning resolution through the software used. If you still have the negatives get them scanned by a decent scanner using better software. Good luck and I hope you will soon be seeing why many of us are still enamored with film.

 

PS. Try some Ilford Delta 100 next time. Just my two cents.

[valtof]

What you are seeing are digital artifacts. This is what happens to good film shots when they are poorly scanned. Most likely a problem of not enough scanning resolution through the software used. If you still have the negatives get them scanned by a decent scanner using better software. Good luck and I hope you will soon be seeing why many of us are still enamored with film.

 

PS. Try some Ilford Delta 100 next time. Just my two cents.

 

Thank you for this more constructive answer.

To understand my purpose, you have to understand that I felt in the computer world before doing photography, I was 19 years old...

For me the dark room has always been more my computer than the lab at school and since I turned in the digital photography, I can't stand anymore doing shots that I can't quickly get back on the screen even if the final goal is almost always to end up with a print for the keepers.

Therefore I need to find a suitable and not too expensive work flow to deal with film again.

This solution (dev + scan for 20€) is quite attractive but I'm a bit disapointed with the quality and I think this is more in that aspect that I was expecting too much (for the money) rather than what a Leica M can provide.

 

I will get some Delta 100 and will test some better scan quality that my lab can offer (the biggest with well reputation in Paris).

Of course, I'm impatient to fall in love again with film, even if think that's already done !

 

Cheers

[biglouis]

Christophe

 

I too recently went down the same route, acquiring a M6TTL. I think you may be expecting too much from the scanning services of your developer, unless they are offering high resolution photoCDs.

 

What I have now done is to get a simple photoCD of my films and I have also bought a relatively inexpensive plustek scanner so that once I view the low res CD images I then only scan to a much higher level the frames I want. Yes, this is an inherently slower process than using a digital rangefinder (I use a R-D1) but in the end you get out what you put in.

 

Although I thought I'd never have the time to use a film camera, if you look back at my recent posts, I'm not sure when I last posted a digital image (excepting a quick shot from my D-LUX 2), so I guess you adapt according to what it is you want to achieve.

 

I hope my comments on my personal workflow are useful.

 

LouisB

[frc]

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Here's a scan and a crop of Provia 400 on my three year old Minolta Scan Dual IV, 83.63 MB, 4680 X 3120 pix @ 300 dpi printsize, 16 bit.

Being an older model scanner it isn't very contrasty or tack sharp but still has a lot of resolution and warmth, slower film and a more recent scanner will push the quality on these issues.

But no fringing as in your pictures.

On trying to get the film look in detail in a scan I think this file size is a must.

On the other hand, why if you have an M8 would you do this if you have a lott of experience in the dark room?

The hybrid suits me because I like the fysical nature of film but do not have a DR. at present and don't really have the space for one and I like the ease of working in PS2 on the computer.

Still, I think, the best B&W results are archeived in the chemical dark room so what's the use of scanning for you.

Sorry for repeating myself but film seems such a useless intermediate step when taken next to you digi M.

 

Pic made with an MP with either a lux 35 asph or tri-elmar at 35 ( can't remember )

 

 

regards,

 

 

Francis

 

 

edit. The moire on the grid is only in the jpg, not in the original tiff.

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[valtof]

I hope my comments on my personal workflow are useful.

 

Yes of course

This enforces my conviction when I see that some are following the same route.

Finding the best work flow with film will be a matter of time and experiment,

but I'm definitely in, I gonna buy this M6...

By the way, I think it's a good bargain : classic black M6, MINT+ (almost new), sold by the only official Leica dealer in France at 1.150 €.

What do you think ?

[valtof]

On the other hand, why if you have an M8 would you do this if you have a lott of experience in the dark room?

 

Still, I think, the best B&W results are archeived in the chemical dark room so what's the use of scanning for you.

Sorry for repeating myself but film seems such a useless intermediate step when taken next to you digi M.

 

Hi Francis,

The dark room times is far away now for me and I also don't have enough room...

Moreover, I don't agree that the best B&W results are still achieved in the dark room.

The digital editing process (and that's really my job) is far more powerful in my opinion,

and when I saw my first B&W EpsonK3 inkjet print at 60x90cm of a very "keeper" shot taken with the M8,

I was amazed and found it clearly superior to chemical print.

I know may be some people here are going to laugh or sigh but I give them the advice that it's worth to make a try !

As for having film beside digital, it is either having a backup for the M8 and having pleasure with the both worlds.

Here again for the laughers and "sighers", I do think the M8's resolution is far better than any film M camera,

but it's not a matter of which is the better but more considering they are two different approach to photography...

 

My two cents also

Cheers

[S. Wong]

The question about the 50 Lux, I think the part in focus is the design on the lady's back, not her shoulders or hat (hair?). The very narrow DOF at that aperture and choice of focus put the shoulders a bit OOF, and the hat more so.

You don't notice it so much in the larger print, but the crop, you can tell somethings not right

 

Can you please enlarge the design on the back, to test my theory?

-Steven

[chris_livsey]

The question about the 50 Lux, I think the part in focus is the design on the lady's back, not her shoulders or hat (hair?).

 

I concur. The right foot and those amazing stockings look tack sharp which would put the back in the plane of focus. The inner kerb line looks sharp up to the second post. You need a second 100% crop. But never mind that look at the bokeh in the background:) who cares about the sharp bit

 

I have empathy here, see my sig, I have a yearning for an MP. The M8 does produce results, recent 16 x 12 prints, up to the quality I had with hand holding the H'blad. The tactile pleasure is not up to the 'blad nor my old M6. Don't hold a black paint MP you will never be happy after. I would happily forego the screen if they could have squeezed the electrics in the MP body. If you are an amateur the shooting pleasure is not just in the result on the wall it it is in the actual handling and taking of the photographs. The feel and the noise, oh that noise, of the M8 is just not there. Another camera that has IT is my ALPA set, Mod 6 and 7, pure pleasure to hold and use.

 

http://www.jimarnold.org/downloads/winogrand/

 

various formats

 

The above vid clip of Winogrand street shooting was a pleasure to watch, the M just waving around, a part of his hand. Perhaps he was the epitome of enjoing the actual process of taking photographs. Poured the rolls,undeveloped into the filling cabinet, saves scanning:)

Workflow wise it is just going to cost to get decent scans done commercially. I sense the DIY is not the road you want. Anecdotally, I don't scan, this is a slow and painful process to get good results.

 

For an idea a lab I use charges as follows for a 36exp scan at develop time

 

Std 6mb £3-50

Med 14mb £10-00

High 40mb £20-00

[harrisfoto]

I will be in Paris in Oct.

Where can I get black & white film processed?

[valtof]

The question about the 50 Lux, I think the part in focus is the design on the lady's back, not her shoulders or hat (hair?). The very narrow DOF at that aperture and choice of focus put the shoulders a bit OOF, and the hat more so.

You don't notice it so much in the larger print, but the crop, you can tell somethings not right

 

Can you please enlarge the design on the back, to test my theory?

-Steven

 

Hi Steven,

You're absolutely right, the plane of focus is a more on the lady's back.

The shot would have been better with a focus plane spot on the crazy mess of her hair/hat...

I think I really did the shot that way and that it's not a faulty rangefinder issue.

I will take some more "technical" shots to ensure this M6's RF adjustment is OK before buying it.

 

Cheers

.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[valtof]

But never mind that look at the bokeh in the background:) who cares about the sharp bit

 

I agree. Especially, M8 users have become obsessed with that.

 

If you are an amateur the shooting pleasure is not just in the result on the wall it it is in the actual handling and taking of the photographs. The feel and the noise, oh that noise, of the M8 is just not there. Another camera that has IT is my ALPA set, Mod 6 and 7, pure pleasure to hold and use.

 

I must admit that before using an M6, I was quite satisfied with the M8's shutter noise,

and I didn't understand what the "Leicaddicts" were complaining about.

Now, I got the point !

In comparison, the M8's shutter/auto-rewinding noise seems unpleasant to the photographer and obtrusive for the subject.

As I always say, the best camera is the one that gives you the desire of shooting...

Since I borrowed this "Classic" M6 four days ago, I didn't touch its big brother M8 !

 

Workflow wise it is just going to cost to get decent scans done commercially. I sense the DIY is not the road you want. Anecdotally, I don't scan, this is a slow and painful process to get good results.

 

I don't understand the term : "DIY" ? (sorry, I'm french...)

 

Cheers

[valtof]

I will be in Paris in Oct.

Where can I get black & white film processed?

 

Big lab but yet very pro, near Bastille :

PICTO : 53bis, rue de la Roquette, Paris 11

phone : +33 1 53 36 21 21

 

Small lab but considered as one of the best, near Montparnasse :

DUPIF : 1, rue Littré, Paris 06

phone : +33 1 42 84 80 60

 

Hope this will help

Cheers and good shots

[Guest malland]

Christophe, I find this "pellicule-philia" absurd: is it because pellicule contains the word "cul"?

 

Seriously, the idea of laboriously scaning film when you have an M8 doesn't make sense to me: first, scanning is time-consuming if you do it yourself or expensive if you want a good scan done commercialy; second, the idea of photographing a scene and the re-photographing the film conceptually doesn't make much sense.

 

Now, the M8 and the M6 are really very different cameras: the M8 produces a look like medium-format film, while the M6, obviously, has a 35mm-film look. If you don't like the medium-format film look of the M8, it would make sense to use an M6 and then print the pictures in the dark room. The other alternative if you don't like the M8 medium format look is use a small-senor camera like the new Ricoh GX100, which has a "stepped zoom" lens that let's you step through 24, 28, 35, 50 and 72mm equivalent fields of view, so the experience is like using prime lenses. Alternatively, you could use the Ricoh GR-D if you like a fixed 28mm-eauivalent lens. Both of these cameras as excellent for street phototgraphy for which their huge depth of field is useful.

 

The small-sensor route is the one I have taken. In my Bangkok Series there are 114 pictures, of which 48 were taken with the M6 mainly on Tri-X and HP5+ and the rest are taken with the Ricoh GR-D except for some 10 pictures taken with the Leica D-Lux 3. You can see the Bangok series by clicking here.

 

Photography is about the pictures, not whether you take them on film or digitally. And Joop's statement above seems to be merely an ignorant prejudice.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland

[Philippe D.]

By the way, I think it's a good bargain : classic black M6, MINT+ (almost new), sold by the only official Leica dealer in France at 1.150 €.

What do you think ?

 

The price for this M6, bought in a shop (with at least 6 months guaranty), is OK.

[Mark Antony]

"the M8 produces a look like medium-format film, while the M6, obviously, has a 35mm-film look. If you don't like the medium-format film look of the M8",

 

Sorry i disagree with this statement, I think that only medium format film looks like medium format film. The M8 is a fine camera, but just doesn't look like film.

 

I think that film and digital look different, the only way to see this is in a print, when I look at the tonal graduations (especially the higher values) of a good neg film on MF I don't see those reproduced by any digital camera, possibly not even a MF digital back.

Take a look at the upper mid tones on any print taken on small format (up to 24x36) digital to see what I mean, much harsher defined highlights that are especially noticeable in the digital medium.

just my opinion

Mark

[chris_livsey]

I don't understand the term : "DIY" ? (sorry, I'm french...)

 

Cheers

 

Hi Christophe

 

Sorry. DIY = Do It Yourself

 

Your english is excellent my french stops at Henri Cartier Bresson

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest malland]

..As I always say, the best camera is the one that gives you the desire of shooting...

Since I borrowed this "Classic" M6 four days ago, I didn't touch its big brother M8 !

I agree, Christophe. Last week I was in Tokyo and stopped by at the Ginza Leica Salon, which must be the most elegant Leica sales and service point in the world. It was the first time that I had a chance to hold the M8, and I must say that, even though it's only a few millieters thicker than the M6, I just didn't like the "feel" of it. Now I know what MIke Johnton meant when he wrote on his blog that it just didn't have the Gestalt of a Leica-M.

 

I then went on to Yodobashi Camera in Shinjuku, a huge camera store with all the charm if a Walmart, but very friendly and helpful sales people, and bought the new Ricoh GX100, having shot with the Ricoh GR-D for a year. Now that I've commited to small-sensor cameras, I just gave away three 500ml bottles of Rodinal and some 100 rolls of Tri-X and HP5+ to a frend who is the best B&W (lab) printer in Bangkok. Now have to start thingking about selling my two M6s (chrome and black), each with the 0.85x viewfinder. Je serai a Paris en octobre...

 

—Mitch/Bangkok