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RAW processing issues -C1


hankg

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There have been some posts in some other threads about highlight and other RAW processing issues recently.

 

I thought I would start a new thread to focus on various processing issues with C1 specifically. As that's the RAW processor I use. In response to the images KM-25 posted : http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/32098-he-llo-whole-new-ballgame-6.html#post339664

. I am seeing the beginnings of a basket weave pattern from the C1 image. I've seen this patterm in M8, 1Ds and medium format files when noise suppression is set to low. It is easier to provoke in the M8 then it was in the 1Ds so for the M8 I leave the noise sliders in C1 on the default setting where as with the Canon 1Ds I would dial them done a bit.

 

For managing highlights there are some occasions when using a linear curve and then setting your own curve to control the 1/4 tone better will help. But in harsh high noon lighting it is of little use as you would have to sacrifice the shadow end to get any head room in the highlights -pushing the midtone into the shadows and gaining noise when you open the midtones in post.

 

I wonder if Sean might consider going a little deeper into the comparisons of lower contrast and higher contrast lenses (to save me the expense of experimenting:)). Focusing on how low contrast lenses can give more control over highlights in high contrast lighting. I use a 28/2 and the pre-ASPH 50/1.4 Leica's and they are not as contrasty as the Zeiss and some of the Leica ASPH lenses but I think I might still benefit in full sun from lenses with still less contrast.

 

In the following sample you will see if you enlarge the noise off image a basket weave pattern which is completely gone with the sliders on default settings.

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Here are details of 2 files processed in C1 of polished aluminum wheels. Providing that the dynamic range is not exceeding the M8's range I don't see anything in the M8 image versus the 1Ds image that would give me cause for concern. The fall-off and speculars are quite similar.If anything the 1Ds details look a bit smeary and painterly -more digital looking then the M8 files although at page size prints I doubt you could see the difference.

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Hi Hank,

What I see in your first sample/comparison is that the tire side wall printing and edge tread detail fades as NR & NR+curve are applied. This might also respond to a localized midtone adjustment, if it is important in the print.

Bob

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Yes, the noise filter seems to have the effect of an anti-aliasing filter. The little white horizontal lines in the headlight and type on the tire are much softer. These are very fine details and the impact in print is not so great as it might appear especially after sharpening. But you will not get back all of what is lost even with local correction.

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Is this weave noise coming out in print? because along with the breakup of fine detail in high contrast images, this is one of the big things some of my clients are easily noticing...

 

Although I doubt you will see it in a page sized print it will get worse with sharpening. I have seen this pattern on Canon 1 series files and medium format back files as well as I've said. Bottom line you should not have it in your files. It's just a question of getting the right settings. The issue is getting rid of the pattern without getting rid of very fine details.

 

Here are a few more tests. Note that with nise suppression on low and pattern suppresion checked you can keep the sharp fine details but there is some slight roughness -it's not quite as smooth but not as soft. You will need to tweek the settings to find the balance that suits you.

 

The bottom 3 are C1. The one with no text is at the default settings.

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where you find this weave pattern strongest is if you process IR images in Capture One. The cure there is to select Pattern Noise Suppression, which removes it completely. I haven't used this option for regular images, so i'm not sure of the effect on fine detail.

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Based on the samples of the aluminum wheels I don't see a problem under controled lighting conditions or conditions where the dynamic range of the scene is not exceeding the sensor's range. As a matter of fact the M8 file used the softer default settings but still matches the 1Ds sharpness, detail and is smooth with no patterns. You should be able to get a bit better sharpness and detail and still have no pattern.

 

The highlights including the speculars are no worse in the M8 samples then the 1Ds. The basket weave pattern is easily controlled with the correct settings although if you turn a file over to a tech who is has not processed M8 files it is easily possible that he might have a problem.

 

That leaves high contrast scenes. I don't have anything immediately at hand that can shine any light on that. Maybe you can post a link to a raw 5D and raw M8 file of the same scene shot in the sort of light that is causing the problem.

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The basket weave pattern is easily controlled with the correct settings although if you turn a file over to a tech who is has not processed M8 files it is easily possible that he might have a problem.

 

What settings in C1 then? I am all ears for a consistent fix...

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I hate to be so obtuse, but would someone point out exactly where in the above images you see this basketweave in evidence?

 

Place the images in Photoshop and enlarge to 200 or 300% The pattern will be very obvoius. It shows as a mottled look at 1:1.

 

As to settings that will work. In the samples above. The default settings work but will be slightly softer then the camera is capable of but looking at the 1Ds file no softer then the Canon. Setting the noise to its lowest setting while clicking on pattern noise preserves more sharpness while still loosing the basketweave.

 

By the way, in C1 if you turn noise suppression to it's lowest setting and do not click on pattern suppression you would get a basket weave pattern in the Canon 1Ds files as well.

 

As I said a 5D and M8 RAW file of a problematic high contrast file would be very helpful in sorting out the problem.

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just shot some outdoor scenes in my backyard with the 28 cron on the M8 and the 35L on the 5D. This time, in C1, I put all the settings at zero, no sharpening, no noise reduction of any kind, nada.

 

The M8 files out resolved the 5D files by about 2-4% and had zero noise at ISO 160. The 5D had a trace of noise, which might be attributed to using a incremental ISO. But either way, there was no noise, moire or any of that from the M8 with the settings put to zero. When I tried to apply even a setting of 1 to the noise reduction, the weave pattern started up again. On this particular try, for some reason, the images were almost exactly the same apparent size on screen when viewed at 100%. This is normally not the case which makes the comparisons hard to do in terms of resolution. Kudos went to the M8 today.....this leads me to believe that the sensor is fine and the conversion is the culprit.

 

So does it really boil down to the M8 needing raw conversion that is entirely different than any other camera since consistency is all over the place? Seems that way to me..

 

So I think what I will do is remember what I said a few weeks ago. The M8 needs the same level of commitment as any camera to get the absolute most out of it. This might mean that as first generation users, we are truly beta testers for how these files should be processed.

 

I'll shoot this camera with highlights in mind and hope the mid-tones don't block up too much in the process.

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just shot some outdoor scenes in my backyard with the 28 cron on the M8 and the 35L on the 5D. This time, in C1, I put all the settings at zero, no sharpening, no noise reduction of any kind, nada.

 

That's interesting. When you mentioned you would be shooting a live job for a client the day after you got the M8. I thought to myself there is a man a lot braver then I. The M8 is definitely a different animal then the Canons and has different processing requirements. I have not yet found a RAW processor I'm happy with but C1 is about equal in output to anything out there right now.

 

If you could post the 2 RAW files on yousendit.com and post a link I'd like to have a look in C1.

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That's interesting. When you mentioned you would be shooting a live job for a client the day after you got the M8. I thought to myself there is a man a lot braver then I. The M8 is definitely a different animal then the Canons and has different processing requirements. I have not yet found a RAW processor I'm happy with but C1 is about equal in output to anything out there right now.

 

If you could post the 2 RAW files on yousendit.com and post a link I'd like to have a look in C1.

 

It was an editorial job, low risk that day. Here are the ones from today,

 

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