Shift R lens - 35 PA Curtagon

[dkCambridgeshire]

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On 3/20/2021 at 2:19 PM, masjah said:

For myself, I use colour negative film, or a digital body, so I have no need of filters other than for protection in bad outdoor conditions.

But let's assume that a coloured filter is very important for you. If you actually have a later  R19 then you could use that lens in most cases as an alternative to the PC lens, (of course with appropriate cropping of the resulting image). This would give by far the best solution for using a filter. (I think the lens turret has yellow-green, orange, blue and neutral. I suspect the blue was to use daylight colour reversal film in tungsten lighting.) If you don't have a later R19 then it's a much more difficult judgement call, because buying one would be a lot of money. In those circumstances I think I would first get hold of a 74mm unmounted disc of the desired colour, from B+W, put it in the PC lens hood, and see if the results look good enough for your needs. If not, then you've got to decide whether or not to go for the R19 lens.

Beware of Leica R 19mm Mk II lenses ... they are prone to lens element 'edge/perimeter' black paint degradation ... whereby particles of black edge paint migrate onto the actual lens elements' surfaces ... similar to the well known 'Schneideritis' edge paint syndrome. Amazed and disappointed to discover my R 19mm Mk II was affected but did not discover the anomaly until a few months after purchase. The lens (in original box) appeared to be in near mint condition when purchased online from a well known Leica dealer (who has since ceased trading) ... thus did not check the lens thoroughly when received.  Lens is still usable but value has plummeted ... it cost £1700 !!  Seems likely the dealer was not so honest in the sales description ... lens had sat on his shelf for months .. .and the sales person appeared a little hesitant ref condition enquiry when I originally phoned to buy the lens. I was a little perplexed when a few weeks after purchase, the same 'hesitant sounding' sales person phoned me to ask, " Are you happy with the lens?" ... "Yes", I replied ... but at that time had not examined it sufficiently thoroughly. Dealers do not usually phone a customer to ask if they're happy with a s/h purchase several weeks after the transaction. Highly unlikely the paint degradation started when in my possession ... Lens SN is 390XXXX thus manufactured in c.2000 ... I bought the lens s/h in 2015.  Suffice to mention I did not buy from that dealer again.  

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[masjah]

2 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Beware of Leica R 19mm Mk II lenses ... they are prone to lens element 'edge/perimeter' black paint degradation ... whereby particles of black edge paint migrate onto the actual lens elements' surfaces ... similar to the well known 'Schneideritis' edge paint syndrome. Amazed and disappointed to discover my R 19mm Mk II was affected but did not discover the anomaly until a few months after purchase. The lens (in original box) appeared to be in near mint condition when purchased online from a well known Leica dealer (who has since ceased trading) ... thus did not check the lens thoroughly when received.  Lens is still usable but value has plummeted ... it cost £1700 !!  Seems likely the dealer was not so honest in the sales description ... lens had sat on his shelf for months .. .and the sales person appeared a little hesitant ref condition enquiry when I originally phoned to buy the lens. I was a little perplexed when a few weeks after purchase, the same 'hesitant sounding' sales person phoned me to ask, " Are you happy with the lens?" ... "Yes", I replied ... but at that time had not examined it sufficiently thoroughly. Dealers do not usually phone a customer to ask if they're happy with a s/h purchase several weeks after the transaction. Highly unlikely the paint degradation started when in my possession ... Lens SN is 390XXXX thus manufactured in c.2000 ... I bought the lens s/h in 2015.  Suffice to mention I did not buy from that dealer again.  

Dunk, that is well worth knowing - thank you. Interestingly, I bought a 35/1.4  ROM Summilux R brand new in 2003. Fifteen or so years later I sold it via a dealer on commission. The dealer pointed out some very tiny black bits inside the optics which he thought would put off potential purchasers buying such an expensive lens. The focus had always been a bit stiff as well, so he recommended we first send it to his repairman for a CLA. The bits were removed. Looking back, I'm sure it must have been flaking edge paint - I can't think what else it could have been. If I recall correctly, it cost me a couple of hundred pounds for the job, so it might be worth getting your 19 R lens done.

 

[Shu_downunder]

46 minutes ago, masjah said:

Just to add that, with its longer focal length and lower maximum shift, any problems with lateral shift of oblique light rays passing through a filter should be less severe with the older lens. So it's really a question of whether or not you need the wider angle and greater shift of the later lens. For myself, photographing interiors of churches, I find that I do.

I don't think I follow John. Do you mean if it's not for extreme situations, 35mm shift lens can handle it in most cases?

[dkCambridgeshire]

31 minutes ago, masjah said:

Dunk, that is well worth knowing - thank you. Interestingly, I bought a 35/1.4  ROM Summilux R brand new in 2003. Fifteen or so years later I sold it via a dealer on commission. The dealer pointed out some very tiny black bits inside the optics which he thought would put off potential purchasers buying such an expensive lens. The focus had always been a bit stiff as well, so he recommended we first send it to his repairman for a CLA. The bits were removed. Looking back, I'm sure it must have been flaking edge paint - I can't think what else it could have been. If I recall correctly, it cost me a couple of hundred pounds for the job, so it might be worth getting your 19 R lens done.

 

John, I had considered having the 19mm R Mk II serviced but it's a complex 13 element lens and would likely be a major task to strip down completely, remove &/or stabilise existing edge paint, repaint,  and reassemble/collimate. I was advised by Leica Mayfair that Leica Germany  would have to service the lens ... and their service costs are very expensive. Whilst the lens' performance continues to be OK I'll 'live with the anomaly' ... If it worsens I'll consider a service ... but only if cost effective i.e costs less than c.£600. As it is, i.e. with visible paint specks, the lens is maybe valued at less than £1000 ... if the paint spots were permanently remedied, valuation would likely be c.£1800 . 

BW

dunk

[Shu_downunder]

57 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Beware of Leica R 19mm Mk II lenses ... they are prone to lens element 'edge/perimeter' black paint degradation ... whereby particles of black edge paint migrate onto the actual lens elements' surfaces ... similar to the well known 'Schneideritis' edge paint syndrome. Amazed and disappointed to discover my R 19mm Mk II was affected but did not discover the anomaly until a few months after purchase. The lens (in original box) appeared to be in near mint condition when purchased online from a well known Leica dealer (who has since ceased trading) ... thus did not check the lens thoroughly when received.  Lens is still usable but value has plummeted ... it cost £1700 !!  Seems likely the dealer was not so honest in the sales description ... lens had sat on his shelf for months .. .and the sales person appeared a little hesitant ref condition enquiry when I originally phoned to buy the lens. I was a little perplexed when a few weeks after purchase, the same 'hesitant sounding' sales person phoned me to ask, " Are you happy with the lens?" ... "Yes", I replied ... but at that time had not examined it sufficiently thoroughly. Dealers do not usually phone a customer to ask if they're happy with a s/h purchase several weeks after the transaction. Highly unlikely the paint degradation started when in my possession ... Lens SN is 390XXXX thus manufactured in c.2000 ... I bought the lens s/h in 2015.  Suffice to mention I did not buy from that dealer again.  

That's so very unfortunate. They ceased trading for SOME reason.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[masjah]

2 hours ago, Shu_downunder said:

I don't think I follow John. Do you mean if it's not for extreme situations, 35mm shift lens can handle it in most cases?

Inside a large building, such as a cathedral, first of all, I've got to keep the image plane vertical, to avoid converging verticals. Then I've got to make sure I can get the top of my desired image within the frame (without tilting the camera upwards). I could achieve this if my lens was of a sufficiently wide angle, or if I could do an upward shift, or both. I often find in these situations that, with a 28mm lens,  I can only achieve what I need with the greater shift that the PC Super Angulon can provide. The PA Curtagon has both a narrower angle of view, and a smaller shift, so would not work for me. The downside is that, with the PC Suer Angulon, filters on the front of the lens are problematical, but I can live without them. A 19mm conventional ultra-wide would work almost all the time for me with no shift at all, and the Leica 19mm R lens solves the filter problem because of the way they are built in. The 35 PA Curtagon would also solve the filter problem because the light rays are not so oblique, but I often just wouldn't be able to get get far enough back inside the building and shift enough to get what I needed into the frame.

So if the narrower angle of view and reduced available shift of the PA Curtagon could meet your needs from a compositional point of view, you would probably be OK using conventional filters too.

[Shu_downunder]

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7 hours ago, masjah said:

Inside a large building, such as a cathedral, first of all, I've got to keep the image plane vertical, to avoid converging verticals. Then I've got to make sure I can get the top of my desired image within the frame (without tilting the camera upwards). I could achieve this if my lens was of a sufficiently wide angle, or if I could do an upward shift, or both. I often find in these situations that, with a 28mm lens,  I can only achieve what I need with the greater shift that the PC Super Angulon can provide. The PA Curtagon has both a narrower angle of view, and a smaller shift, so would not work for me. The downside is that, with the PC Suer Angulon, filters on the front of the lens are problematical, but I can live without them. A 19mm conventional ultra-wide would work almost all the time for me with no shift at all, and the Leica 19mm R lens solves the filter problem because of the way they are built in. The 35 PA Curtagon would also solve the filter problem because the light rays are not so oblique, but I often just wouldn't be able to get get far enough back inside the building and shift enough to get what I needed into the frame.

So if the narrower angle of view and reduced available shift of the PA Curtagon could meet your needs from a compositional point of view, you would probably be OK using conventional filters too.

I see, understand now. Thank you John. 
 

[Shu_downunder]

So to summarise what I learnt from all your experiences:

- Canon TS-e 24, very nice overall but too big if not using tripod, expensive as well.

- 19R, really good results and most compact, but expensive, need to be careful about internal paint pilling off issue.

- 28 PC, very good result, I can’t find much to complain except when there is special filter requirement  

- 35 PA, very good result when stepped down to 8 or 11, which make it a slow head, especially considering I don’t have a high-iso-usable body, other than that it’s compact, and easier to use filters.

In general, I think the 28PC actually resolve 95% of my needs, and a bonus is that it can be used as a normal 2.8/28 lens in terms of image quality and lens size. 

I therefore decide just to invest some good filters for 28 PC for now. And shoot for another year or two and see how I go. 
 

Thanks again all for your help. 
 

Shu