Image failure with Typ007 and HC lens shutter

[yoshi]

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When I used Tyo007 with S-H adapter and Hasselblad HC lens with central shutter speed 1/125s to 1/750, I got uneven image. I asked Leica Japan to test it and they tested it with some Typ007, S3, S-H adapter and HC80mm. Does anyone have any information on how to improve this?
As a supplement, Typ006 images are fine.

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[Photon42]

I do not recall I have this problem. I central shutter issue should actually even give you that effect, in my eyes. Admittedly, I am no expert, but I do use HC lenses (100 and 210) on the S (007 and S2). Not so often these days, though ...

Edited March 7, 2021 by Photon42

[yoshi]

8 hours ago, Photon42 said:

I do not recall I have this problem. I central shutter issue should actually even give you that effect, in my eyes. Admittedly, I am no expert, but I do use HC lenses (100 and 210) on the S (007 and S2). Not so often these days, though ...

Photon42 thank you for your reply. Maybe the problem is my HC80 or S-H adapter. I'll try to verify with a different lens. Thanks a lot.

[helged]

6 hours ago, yoshi said:

Photon42 thank you for your reply. Maybe the problem is my HC80 or S-H adapter. I'll try to verify with a different lens. Thanks a lot.

There are some reported inconsistencies when it comes to the electronic S-adapters, see links below. Personally, I have only experience with Hasselblad HC 300mm f4.5 with the Leica S-Adapter H on S006 and S3, and it works well.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

This looks like the focal plane shutter is out of sync with the central shutter. The FPS has to open first, and then the CS fires, and the FPS closes again. It is a bit more involved than on a camera with only leaf shutters. In this case, it looks like what happens when the FPS is shot above its sync speed. So I suspect that there is some delay somewhere in the system that is causing this mismatch. I doubt it is something that anyone other than Leica and/or Hasselblad could fix. The only advice beyond that would be to try a different lens, and try a different adapter, and see if the problem goes away. Then you might be able to narrow down which is at fault, if it is just one of them.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[yoshi]

3 hours ago, helged said:

There are some reported inconsistencies when it comes to the electronic S-adapters, see links below. Personally, I have only experience with Hasselblad HC 300mm f4.5 with the Leica S-Adapter H on S006 and S3, and it works well.

 

 

Helged thank you reply and thanks for sharing the link in the forum about the adapter. It's interesting!
I read the link and my HC80 lenses tested by Leica Japan are the relatively new FW17.0.0 and the older FW12.0.0. Images are not good with either lens. Sad.

[yoshi]

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

This looks like the focal plane shutter is out of sync with the central shutter. The FPS has to open first, and then the CS fires, and the FPS closes again. It is a bit more involved than on a camera with only leaf shutters. In this case, it looks like what happens when the FPS is shot above its sync speed. So I suspect that there is some delay somewhere in the system that is causing this mismatch. I doubt it is something that anyone other than Leica and/or Hasselblad could fix. The only advice beyond that would be to try a different lens, and try a different adapter, and see if the problem goes away. Then you might be able to narrow down which is at fault, if it is just one of them.

Thank you Stuart Richardson.
The timing of the CS and FP shutters are not aligned. I think you have the right idea, excellent!  Leica Japan, the company I relied on, tested my camera, adapter and HC lenses for a month and recognized the image problem, they tried it with their Typ 007 and S3 and the images were also problem. This told me that it was not a problem with the camera or adapter and they returned the equipment to me. No action taken because it's not broken, and I'm not happy with this result since the advantage of CS lenses is on the fast side.

Thank you!

[Stuart Richardson]

edit: nevermind. I missed your first post after mine. If both lenses are an issue, I am not sure what to say...have you been able to try a different adapter? Have you contacted Leica Wetzlar? I imagine for the most complicated repairs, only they have the capacity to fix it.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Stuart Richardson]

The only other thing I can think is that perhaps the Hasselblad lens needs a clean/lube/adjust. I would imagine that in order for this all to work perfectly, the components all have to be perfectly clean and new. If there is any delay in the leaf shutter opening and closing, the Leica shutter will already be closing before the leaf shutter is fully closed, and I think it would cause an error like this. If the shutter in the Hasselblad lens is a bit slower because of a lack of lubrication or a build up of wear and tear, then perhaps it is being delayed just enough to cause this problem. Keep in mind that a delay of a small fraction of a second would be enough to cause this...you would probably not see this error on a Hasselblad body, as there are not two shutters that need to be in as close sync.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[yoshi]

12 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

私が考えることができる他の唯一のことは、おそらくハッセルブラッドレンズはクリーン/潤滑/調整が必要だということです。これらすべてが完全に機能するためには、すべてのコンポーネントが完全にクリーンで新しいものでなければならないと思います。リーフシャッターの開閉が遅れると、リーフシャッターが完全に閉まる前にライカシャッターが閉まってしまうので、こんなエラーになると思います。ハッセルブラッドレンズのシャッターが、潤滑不足または摩耗の蓄積のために少し遅い場合は、おそらくこの問題を引き起こすのに十分なだけ遅れています。これを引き起こすには、ほんの一瞬の遅延で十分であることに注意してください...ハッセルブラッドのボディでは、2つのシャッターを厳密に同期させる必要がないため、このエラーはおそらく表示されません。

Thank you Stuart Richardson,
I have two S-H adapters. Both adapters export problematic images. Of the several lenses I have, only the HC28 shows no problem with images.
As you said, my HC lens is fine with the hasselblad camera. leica S shutter and HC lens seem to be synchronized with bad timing.

I have not contacted Wetzlar, because I assume leica JAPAN will contact them. But it seems better to contact Germany directly from me.

Thanks a lot for your consideration. Thank you very much.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am sorry that your experience has been bad. I hope that they are able to fix this situation for you, as being able to use the central shutter but not have it sync at high speeds seems to be very impractical. I have not heard of this issue before, so hopefully it is not too bad and Leica in Germany can solve it.

[Photon42]

On 3/8/2021 at 10:07 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

This looks like the focal plane shutter is out of sync with the central shutter. The FPS has to open first, and then the CS fires, and the FPS closes again. It is a bit more involved than on a camera with only leaf shutters. In this case, it looks like what happens when the FPS is shot above its sync speed. So I suspect that there is some delay somewhere in the system that is causing this mismatch. I doubt it is something that anyone other than Leica and/or Hasselblad could fix. The only advice beyond that would be to try a different lens, and try a different adapter, and see if the problem goes away. Then you might be able to narrow down which is at fault, if it is just one of them.

good catch!

[Photon42]

12 hours ago, yoshi said:

Thank you Stuart Richardson,
I have two S-H adapters. Both adapters export problematic images. Of the several lenses I have, only the HC28 shows no problem with images.
As you said, my HC lens is fine with the hasselblad camera. leica S shutter and HC lens seem to be synchronized with bad timing.

I have not contacted Wetzlar, because I assume leica JAPAN will contact them. But it seems better to contact Germany directly from me.

Thanks a lot for your consideration. Thank you very much.

Try with another HC lens - it may well be the specific HC lens. As said, both of mine work fine. One is "orange dot", on is not.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Photon42

[yoshi]

I appreciate everyone's advice.
I don't have any feedback from Wetzlar, but I did notice an important point.

The firmware for the HC and HCD lenses needs to be 18.0 or higher.
The following lenses work fine with the S007 and H C lens shutters.
HC 80mm orange dot with firmware 19.0, then HCD28 firmware 18.0

If the lens is firmware 17 or earlier, the problem will occur.
This problem is not with the s006.

Thank you for your help!

[yoshi]

Unresolved, uneven image issue with Typ007 and Hasselblad H lens.

I posted this issue back in 2021 and found a real solution.

It had nothing to do with the h lens firmware, orange dot or not, or the LS mode of the Typ007.
About the main problem that causes problems with the image.　The problem was the setting to push the joystick in MF mode to drive the AF.
I found that the problem did not occur when the AF was activated by pressing the shutter release halfway down.

I now use the S-H adapter and HC lenses with typ007 at work with no worries.

Thank you all.

 

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[kodachrome]

On 2/13/2023 at 3:32 AM, yoshi said:

Unresolved, uneven image issue with Typ007 and Hasselblad H lens.

I posted this issue back in 2021 and found a real solution.

It had nothing to do with the h lens firmware, orange dot or not, or the LS mode of the Typ007.
About the main problem that causes problems with the image.　The problem was the setting to push the joystick in MF mode to drive the AF.
I found that the problem did not occur when the AF was activated by pressing the shutter release halfway down.

I now use the S-H adapter and HC lenses with typ007 at work with no worries.

Thank you all.

 

 

Didn't think of that I have my S 006 setup for back button autofocus using my HC 80mm and 120mm 

[yoshi]

3 hours ago, kodachrome said:

HC 80mm と 120mm を使用して戻るボタンのオートフォーカス用に S 006 をセットアップしているとは思いもしませんでした 

With the typ006, you can comfortably activate the AF with the joystick on the back. The affinity between the HC lens and the typ006 is high!