photoin10sity Posted August 24, 2007 Share #121 Posted August 24, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does anyone really want Leica to try to be another Canon or Nikon with their SLR system? Precisely. I want to thank Leica for building the R9. I know that some folks from Leica read this message board, so I wanted to say thank you for building such a fine camera. It really has brought some joy to my life; i've been very happy with the large viewfinder and manual controls. I have to use a 20D for work, and it's a total bore. Does the job sure, but it's a bore... Anyway, with that said, folks at Leica, please build the R10 or new R Digital that uses all of the wonderful R lenses of course, and don't make it too different from the R9 in form. Keep the mirror lock up as a switch on the body. Make the viewfinder just as tasty as the R9. (Although, i've heard the SL1 and SL2 have wonderful viewfinders too.) As far as the technical stuff (processor, pixel pitch, 16-Bit, etc), just make it world class. I'm sure you know what to do. I just want a nice digital tool to capture moments in time, a tool that feels right, not a faceless black plastic computer console with a thousand buttons. Best of luck guys... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 24, 2007 Posted August 24, 2007 Hi photoin10sity, Take a look here Is R10 or a brand new Digital-R coming ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest tummydoc Posted August 24, 2007 Share #122 Posted August 24, 2007 There's a huge difference between partnering and contracting. An example of the latter is Leica's current arrangement with Panasonic, where the timetable for release and discontinuation is inexorably controlled by Panasonic's plan for their own version, and where differences in performance between two products basically identical beneath the skin, aren't always perceived as commensurate with the price differential, which deflects any buyers toward the Panasonic twin who aren't besotted with the red roundel. Partnering, however, could be quite beneficial to Leica. Whilst I applaud Guy's unwavering confidence in Leica's ability to succeed autonomously in every undertaking, I see no benefit to Leica going it alone and refusing to avail themselves of outside resources. As long as they retain full contol of a project, partnering can only help bring better technology to market in a timely fashion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angora Posted August 24, 2007 Share #123 Posted August 24, 2007 Here are the fakes : Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoin10sity Posted August 24, 2007 Share #124 Posted August 24, 2007 Personally, I hope they make it look almost just like the fakes, Angora. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted August 24, 2007 Share #125 Posted August 24, 2007 It's easy for me, I want a BASIC Digital R platform for all my R lenses. Simple and you know it makes sense! I know how to focus and take photographs. I agree completely. Very limited menu-driven bells and whistles. Just a good, solid R body with a quality sensor. It can be argued that we have this in the form of existing R cameras and a high quality film scanner, but I have come to rely on the immediate gratification of digital, and the ability to reshoot, as well as download and edit that night while on photo excursions. So, a dedicated digital R body would be ideal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 24, 2007 Share #126 Posted August 24, 2007 There's a huge difference between partnering and contracting. An example of the latter is Leica's current arrangement with Panasonic, where the timetable for release and discontinuation is inexorably controlled by Panasonic's plan for their own version, and where differences in performance between two products basically identical beneath the skin, aren't always perceived as commensurate with the price differential, which deflects any buyers toward the Panasonic twin who aren't besotted with the red roundel. Partnering, however, could be quite beneficial to Leica. Whilst I applaud Guy's unwavering confidence in Leica's ability to succeed autonomously in every undertaking, I see no benefit to Leica going it alone and refusing to avail themselves of outside resources. As long as they retain full contol of a project, partnering can only help bring better technology to market in a timely fashion. You hit the strong point control over the product and I may have worded my comments slightly wrong. They have many vendors that supply them parts for assembly . LCD, Sensors, mechnical, circuits and such but It has to be under Leica's control and not a situation like Imacon and the DMR were Imacon called the shots. Also Leica needs to bring all firmware in house that is what makes the system and they need complete control over that, i think a partner here is bad for them. They are better at partnering with Kodak for the sensor because it is a joint project but firmware to me is the properity stuff. leica can't build everything there basically the optical company that puts out a camera to match there glass. So they have to rely on vendors and partners to bring that in there door but they also need to own it and not let anyone dictate to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 24, 2007 Share #127 Posted August 24, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Pretty much all the core components inside the M8 and DMR can be (and in fact were) sourced from vendors elsewhere, Leica needs the know-how to put pieces together and work the best out of it and that could only happen in house. I've no doubt that they're on the right path now, bringing firmware development in house is a sensible move eying the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmb Posted August 24, 2007 Share #128 Posted August 24, 2007 The second camera would be the new digital, and would have the following features: - Existing R lenses would work as they work now, except that there would be focus confirmation based on contrast. It would not flash, but simply light up, and can be turned off completely. - Autofocus lenses should be supported, as should optical stabilisation; no need to redo the entire line. The support should simply be there. - 1/250s or faster flash sync. TTL everything. - Canon 5D size, smaller than R9. Better grip shape. About 800g. - Should accept two SD cards, and support SDHC. - 105-110% viewfinder! Should show a little more than one gets, with a sharp line to show the actual frame. - SL focusing screen technology. - 14-18MP FF, ISO 100-400 perfect, ISO 50, 800-1600 clean, 3200-6400 for emergencies. - 10MB compressed nonlossy DNG format. Full lens and aperture EXIF info! - 5+ fps, 15-20 photos buffered. Optional manual wind lever for quiet situations! - no millions of menus and buttons, just like the DMR with a few extra controls for AF and OIS. - Direct ISO and EXP access, either through buttons, or through a scroll wheel+button trick. Did I leave anything out? Excellent feature list Carsten. I especially like your idea of a 110% viewfinder! But as I mentioned on another thread, I would include a 3" High-Def LCD (or OLED) with 920,000 pixels minimum. Personally, I would also add dual-mode Live View like the new Nikons with mirror lockup for tripod work. If Leica incorporates all these features in the R10 they will have a winner! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 25, 2007 Share #129 Posted August 25, 2007 Does anyone really want Leica to try to be another Canon or Nikon with their SLR system? At least now with the three new Canons and two new Nikons (with a third expected), Leica can fully understand the cameras the R10 is up against in terms of image quality if not feature set. At its likely price point, the EOS 1Ds III and (presumed) D3x are the cameras most likely to be compared to it and I expect they will be buying examples of the new cameras to benchmark the R10 against. They can't possibly hope to compete with Canon and Nikon on a feature by feature tick list, instead, the R10 has to appeal on the basis of its simplicity, not its all conquering complexity and there needs to be at least two new lenses which move the R-lens game significantly forwards. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 25, 2007 Share #130 Posted August 25, 2007 Excellent feature list Carsten. I especially like your idea of a 110% viewfinder! But as I mentioned on another thread, I would include a 3" High-Def LCD (or OLED) with 920,000 pixels minimum. Personally, I would also add dual-mode Live View like the new Nikons with mirror lockup for tripod work. If Leica incorporates all these features in the R10 they will have a winner! The Nikons don't have 920,000 pixels, they have 920,000 dots, and there are 3 dots per pixel (RGB). They are VGA screens, ie. 640x480. This is twice the current resolution, and apparently the pixels are so small that they are not visible. I would love a VGA LCD too. I also forgot to mention the high eye-point viewfinder. So: - High eye-point 110% viewfinder with frameline. - 3" VGA LCD screen (if it fits! It wouldn't on an M8, and I would not want the M8 to be any larger) Personally I am against the LiveView stuff. We never needed it in the past, and we don't need it in the future. It is a very complicated feature, and requires lots of mirror juggling and setup. I prefer to keep it simple. You will note in my list that I did not include anything cutting-edge, but more a selection of the best features from the past, as well as ergonomics. The absolutely crucial point is that it will have great IQ, ie. 16-bit 14-18MP sensor with great sensitivity and colour fidelity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruiespanhol Posted August 25, 2007 Share #131 Posted August 25, 2007 Precisely. I want to thank Leica for building the R9. I know that some folks from Leica read this message board, so I wanted to say thank you for building such a fine camera. It really has brought some joy to my life; i've been very happy with the large viewfinder and manual controls. I have to use a 20D for work, and it's a total bore. Does the job sure, but it's a bore... Anyway, with that said, folks at Leica, please build the R10 or new R Digital that uses all of the wonderful R lenses of course, and don't make it too different from the R9 in form. Keep the mirror lock up as a switch on the body. Make the viewfinder just as tasty as the R9. (Although, i've heard the SL1 and SL2 have wonderful viewfinders too.) As far as the technical stuff (processor, pixel pitch, 16-Bit, etc), just make it world class. I'm sure you know what to do. I just want a nice digital tool to capture moments in time, a tool that feels right, not a faceless black plastic computer console with a thousand buttons. Best of luck guys... I full agree whit you! I love the size and form of my R8 and the viewfinder is the best I know in 35mm cameras. That is just I think and want for the new R10. Best, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted August 25, 2007 Share #132 Posted August 25, 2007 At its likely price point, the EOS 1Ds III and (presumed) D3x are the cameras most likely to be compared to it and I expect they will be buying examples of the new cameras to benchmark the R10 against. They can't possibly hope to compete with Canon and Nikon on a feature by feature tick list, instead, the R10 has to appeal on the basis of its simplicity, not its all conquering complexity and there needs to be at least two new lenses which move the R-lens game significantly forwards. . The D3x is aimed at the 1D not the 1Ds. The 1Ds is competing with the low end of the medium format market. As the R10 is not likely to be a speed demon for the sports shooter like the 1D and D3x it's really up against the 1Ds. If Leica could make it the size of the R9, it would be much more compact then the porky Canon 1 series. A big really stunning viewfinder, simple controls and a full frame chip with no anti-alias filter in the range of 16MP. Aperture rings, excellent manual focus with autofocus when you want it. It would make a very attractive alternative to the typical pro DSLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krabat Posted August 25, 2007 Share #133 Posted August 25, 2007 Guys, I wonder if Solms will answer our prayers.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmb Posted August 25, 2007 Share #134 Posted August 25, 2007 Personally I am against the LiveView stuff. We never needed it in the past, and we don't need it in the future. It is a very complicated feature, and requires lots of mirror juggling and setup. I prefer to keep it simple. You will note in my list that I did not include anything cutting-edge, but more a selection of the best features from the past, as well as ergonomics. The absolutely crucial point is that it will have great IQ, ie. 16-bit 14-18MP sensor with great sensitivity and colour fidelity. I am well aware that I may be in the minority here regarding the value of Live View. But it is a feature that can be used or ignored by the individual. We never needed auto-focus or focus confirmation in the past either (technology did not permit it), but that does not preclude its value for many photographers in the future. Since I shoot a lot with a tripod, composing with a bright sharp LCD would be like using a ground glass on a view camera. While it is not a priority feature and may be cutting-edge today, I really think within the next two years this will be a standard feature on all dSLRs. If Leica can engineer it without too much complexity, it should be offered. But we are all agreed that the primary focus must be on the highest IQ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 25, 2007 Share #135 Posted August 25, 2007 Yeah, my phrasing was bad, and make me sound like an old fogie. Still, I find that Live View is a bit of a gimmick, and given the constrained resources at Leica, I would much rather that they continue to focus on giving us those feaures which have proven themselves over the last decade or so, but are missing in the R9, than those which were introduced this year. I can't imagine that focusing on a pixel-based screen can be more accurate than a good viewfinder. I think part of the value of having it on a 4/3 camera is that the viewfinders on those are so bad for focusing manually. I would prefer to let it prove its value over the next few years, and then add it to the next generation, and then to have Leica work overtime on getting a nice design, great ergonomics, great IQ, and a solid, fast implementation of AF and OIS. The OIS can even drop out if it is too much work for this round. It would just be great to have it in the camera, even if there are only a couple of lenses with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 25, 2007 Share #136 Posted August 25, 2007 The OIS can even drop out if it is too much work ... I bought one of Canon's first image stabilising lenses and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why the pictures were so crap. But finally it dawned on me - it was because the lens was crap. If Leica will make lenses that are designed and built to the limits of technical feasibility and bodies with a good viewfinder and a shutter button, I'll take responsibility for everything else. Leica will make it good and keep it simple. And Leica photographers will love it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 26, 2007 Share #137 Posted August 26, 2007 Yeah, my phrasing was bad, and make me sound like an old fogie. ... The OIS can even drop out if it is too much work for this round. It would just be great to have it in the camera, even if there are only a couple of lenses with it. Well, you're clearly no old fogie if you're willing to give up OIS! My worsening tremor needs all help available. I've got the Nikkor 18-200--very convenient, though with just usable image quality--and its VR is amazing. I can handhold the lens at 200mm (300mm equivalent) at 1/30 or so. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bono0272 Posted August 26, 2007 Share #138 Posted August 26, 2007 Excellent feature list Carsten. I especially like your idea of a 110% viewfinder! But as I mentioned on another thread, I would include a 3" High-Def LCD (or OLED) with 920,000 pixels minimum. Personally, I would also add dual-mode Live View like the new Nikons with mirror lockup for tripod work. If Leica incorporates all these features in the R10 they will have a winner! I would add: ultrasonic sensor cleaning function, if the R10 is no more a detachable back which allows the users to clean the sensor easily and directly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH21 Posted August 26, 2007 Share #139 Posted August 26, 2007 Why not make something very similar to the r9/DMR but remove that old film frame that confines the sensor...ie make the mirror box bigger on the film side and use a bigger sensor (hopefully full frame) but still have the camera split apart so the sensor can be easily cleaned. No doubt that if there is a R10 in development its a long way past being able to incorporate these suggestions but that would be cool. But if they can get closer to FF and higher ISO with just a few more pixels, I'd be really happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted August 26, 2007 Share #140 Posted August 26, 2007 I have been following this thread with considerable interest, and it is intriguing to see the variety of wants/not-wants proposed for this dslr paragon . To inject a note of reality(?) - IIRC the R10 is to be introduced at Photokina 2008 - just over 12 months away. I have no experience of camera manufacture time scale, but Leica is not a vast corporation like C.N. or P; so bearing in mind Leica's high standards if we allow for manufacture of initial prototypes, testing and amendments to same and manufacture of a few demo models for the show would you not expect the hardware spec. to be basically decided by now? Perhaps some minor things could be changed, and certainly firmware altered but otherwise... ? (Now ducks down under the parapet and puts on body-armour - ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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