Used M8's Don't Sell on Ebay

[FastFashnReloaded]

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I have noticed recently that used M8's don't seem to sell very well on Ebay even though they appear to have decent starting bids or "buy it now" prices. The last half dozen that have been put up for bids have failed to generate any bids at all. I can understand if bids didn't reach the reserve price set, but M8's of late are not getting any bids at all and yet they are in mint or like new condition. One guy was selling a 3 week old M8 with not a nick, scratch or ding. He had hardly used it and rated it as "like new". It had full warranty, filter voucher, paperwork, boxes, everything. He had an 100% positive rating. His bidding started $500 below retail and he did not get a single bid.

 

A little disturbing if you purchase an M8 with the idea, that like most Leica gear, it will hold its resale value for a good long time.

 

Perhaps, it is the admittedly hefty price and most individual sellers don't take credit cards which may knock out some potential buyers, but most sellers accept Paypal these days which lets you pay via CC. Others may not want to risk buying a "used" item regardless of the stated condition for such a pricey item. A savings of $500 may not be enough to run the risk, slight though it may be.

 

Anyone have any other theories?

 

Yes. Why buy a used piece of equipment at the same or nearly the same price as brand new? It is silly.

 

Maybe we need to add a new word to the vernacular. "Ebaypeeping"

 

Look, if I have $5000 and I have a choice of buying new or used, I'll pick new. It is also idiotic and suspicious that someone would have something this expensive and only three weeks old and be trying to unload it on Ebay. It doesn't track. If I didn't like it, I would have found out in the first day, and either returned it or exchanged it where I purchased it.

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[FastFashnReloaded]

If Leica keeps jacking up the price of new M8s (to what, $6000?), you are going to see a lot more M8s selling on Ebay for close to today's MSRP.

 

If the Bush (Shrub) Administration doesn't stop causing the dollar to go into free fall against the Yen, Euro (etc) then everything European is going to be exotically expensive. Do you think Leica WANTS to have to raise prices again???

 

Don't blame Leica for the policies devised by these f'ing IDIOTS in the US government.

[jhild]

the Leica warranty is with the item, not the owner. This is what Solms told me on the phone.

They even don´t care about names, all they want to see is the original receipt from a shop

plus a stamped warranty card. That is the message I got from Solms on the phone.

 

Jo

[biglouis]

I only responded to this thread because I was quite close to buying an M8 in June. And I kept looking at e-Bay. If someone had priced a second hand realistically I would have bought it but they kept on being offered for £200-£300 below the market price.

 

Well, in the UK you get a 1Yr passport and a 2 year warranty. That has got to be worth at least £200-300. Consumers are rational and they all do a similar calculation in their head. That may be why they did not sell, or sold well below the sellers expectation.

 

I have a lot of experience of selling on e-Bay and my conclusion after approximately 500 trades is that start low and let the market decide. Often, buyers will form an emotional attachment with a specific auction and in the heat of the moment actually pay a lot more than they intended.

 

In a recent e-bay auction, selling a 5 month old D80 I actually got back 75% of what I paid for it, starting the auction at £99. Given that most items depreciate by 40% as soon as you buy them (with the exception of gold bars) I thought that was a pretty good result.

 

Bottom line is, speculating in nearly new M8s if you bought at full retail is not a good investment. Specualting in s/h M8s as and when sellers get more realistic about prices might be OK.

 

LouisB

 

PS The above poster is right, btw, warranties in the UK, at least, are transferrable - even if you bought the item outside the UK, according to e-mail correspondence I have with Leica UK.

[Guest sirvine]

If the Bush (Shrub) Administration doesn't stop causing the dollar to go into free fall against the Yen, Euro (etc) then everything European is going to be exotically expensive. Do you think Leica WANTS to have to raise prices again???

 

Don't blame Leica for the policies devised by these f'ing IDIOTS in the US government.

 

I'll take a more expensive M8 in exchange for more foreign spending in the US.

[FastFashnReloaded]

I'll take a more expensive M8 in exchange for more foreign spending in the US.

 

That is a good point. If Leica were making cameras here (as Honda, Toyota, Subaru are making cars and car-like devices in Indiana) then I might not think we were talking apples and anchovies.

 

Unfortunately, Leica, Porsche, Ferrari and Ducati don't make things here in the US. So, because the dollar becomes worth less every time Dear Leader opens his mouth, we have to pay more for the good stuff.

 

Canon can afford to take a hit on profit. I'm sure that their plasticams come with a one hundred percent profit margin built in any way. Leica can't do that.

 

Besides, any thing that I can blame the smirking chimp for makes me happy.

[leicapfile]

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The warranty card for my M7 (Leica USA) clearly states (and in red print mind you), that the warranty (Passport and otherwise) IS NOT TRANSFERABLE.

 

Jerry

[S. Wong]

I would ask that politics be left off of this site, as I find that this is not the time nor place for political diatribe.

 

back to the economics of digital cameras:

you can not expect a digital camera, no matter how well made, to hold its value across more than 5 years.

 

for example:

Contax N digital: MINT Contax N Digital SLR Camera w/Raw Developer Kit - (item 130141001892 end time Aug-12-07 15:13:09 PDT)

Originally $7000, full-frame DSLR 6 mpx. Now, much cheaper, but still holds some value for the those that shoot it, as they have no other DSLR without an adapter, asking nearly $3000

 

Leica DMR:

Leica Digital Module R DMR and Leica R8 Like New - (item 120148715539 end time Aug-06-07 07:34:40 PDT)

Originally $5500 + $2000 = $7500, 1.4x crop 10mpx DSLR. Again, the only offering for Leica SLR's without an adapter, now $4500

 

For the rangefinders, there's only been 2 choices:

Epson RD-1

EPSON R-D1 RD-1 Rangefinder Digital Camera Excellent - (item 150146468081 end time Aug-05-07 21:45:00 PDT)

Originally $3000, 1.5x crop 6mpx DRF. Sold for $1700

 

The M8 really has not had much of a chance to see it's depreciation, but these precedence do not look good for long term value. I did not compare the other camera brands, as both Big N & Big C have a new DSLR out nearly every 8 months, which further depreciates the current offerings. What is shown here is mostly the best case scenario for the long-term value of the M8.

 

Looking at Panasonic's pricing with the L1, they understand the steep depreciation, and have move the pricing from over $2000 to right around $1200, at which price you get a free digital camera with the purchase of the lens (you can buy the lens separately for the same $1200)

 

I feel that Leica will continue to support DMR/M8 users, and provide new, improved models, though I fear for the product cycle time.

The new DMR/R10 will arrive exactly on time for the 5 year product cycles that Leica uses. Unfortunately, the cycles really need to be cut in half or less to keep up with the digital landscape.

 

The average deprecation is 50%, and none of these lines are currently running except the L1. Every one was discontinued, and no new models have followed, leaving those customers in the lurch for updates and other service.

-Steven

[glenerrolrd]

Is that really the case? Whenever I've bought R system gear second-hand with unexpired warranty, I've simply sent the cards in to MK, with a sales receipt to verify my bona fide ownership, and I've had the warranty re-registered in my name without question. Is the M8 different in this respect?

Can only speak from what I received from Leica USA....M8 warranty can not be transferred. If the camera has not been registered you may be able to register it ..which would have the effect of providing the warranty to a second purchaser ...Leica can request the original sales receipt. Its very hard to get a direct answer on this as I speculate that Leica wants to honor the warranty. How this will play out over time who knows. My POV is that if you can get the original invoice and the camera has not been registered..then at the right price it could be a good decision . I sent Leica USA an email and then followed up directly.

[glenerrolrd]

No- the warranty is transferable - and worldwide.

Never in doubt are you. In the US the warranty isn t transferrable on the M8 .

[KM-25]

If the M8 would have hit the market with none of the major teething problems that it did *and* had high ISO noise no more than 1-stop over the 5D, they would sell on the used market like a mint 1956 MP.

 

But it did not so therefore, it will not sell very easily due to this. I had the chance to buy mint used from $4,200-$4,500 from users on forums who had great feedback.

 

I do photography for a living, I can not take chances, I bought it brand new. Aside from the IR issue, I have an M8 that is only 4 days old, has nearly 1,000 cycles on it and is, well, for the M8, flawless.

 

Buying a buggy camera used is just asking for trouble.

[cwf]

Discounts from new for used on eBay is interesting because individuals have different criteria for worth.

 

With the M8, whose electronics must function to take pictures, there are unknowns about its long term reliability and obsolescence. I personally would want a substantial discount (50%?), which means I likely would have trouble winning an auction against those who are less risk adverse. This is why eBay generally is structually good for sellers: auctions are won by the bidder who values a given item highest. Right now, eBay is less good for sellers, apparently because potential buyers are more risk adverse.

 

Otoh, M lenses (without, recall, autofocus or image stabilization) seem, at least to me, inherently reliable, at least if not dropped, etc. Further, they can be cleaned, lubricated, and adjusted.

 

This may change over time. I remember when pocket calculators were fragile; I now have several HP-12s well over voting age. Perhaps electonically controlled cameras similarly will become paragons of reliability. Query when.

[KM-25]

Perhaps electonically controlled cameras similarly will become paragons of reliability. Query when.

 

I can't really speak of the M8 yet in terms of real world long term reliability, but the pair of 5D's I own have been fail safe since late Aug. of 05. I probably have around 180,000 frames on both and work in mostly outdoor and adventure pursuits frequently exposing the pair to harsher conditions than the average wedding or portrait photographer.

 

So I think in general, today's pro / pro-sumer DSLR's are no less reliable than any other pro / pro-sumer film camera.

 

One would think.....and hope, that Leica has shopped around for and installed the best in this regard since we have paid the same kind of premium for the M8 that any other good top end equipment would cost, regardless of format or maker.

 

Time most certainly will tell...