*4* New Summarits

[Jack_Flesher]

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But we'll have to see how they draw...

 

Amen... I like the compact form factor, but it don't mean squat if they can't paint.

 

Jack

[Jack_Flesher]

to apply it to a new economy line of moderately fast lenses is very clever.

 

 

Yep. Just as clever as bringing out the new Coke was...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think the M8 is desperately in need of new lenses, but, with the possible exception of the new 35, none of these seem to fit the bill for the photojournalistically inclined. I have felt that Leica came out with the M8 to peddle their old lenses, but none of these old lenses are optimized for the M8--they are a compromise in every regard. They are heavier and larger--or convesely, slower for a given weight and size--than they need to be to cover the 1.33 image circle. And they are too contrasty for a digital sensor. "New" lenses that are also designed for the film cameras do not solve these problems.

 

What I need for this camera is faster, wider lenses that are appropriately compact for the 1.33 crop. As one glaring example, how about a 26mm/2.0 that is the size of the older 35 Summicron? Or faster, more compact 28's, 24's, 21's? Or what about just rereleasing the the 35 Suumicron IV?

 

If you really want a 35/2.5, buy the CV lens--it's a great piece of work and a steal at US$300. The current Elmar 50/2.8 is a great lens and only half a stop slower. I think Leica is being incredibly unimaginiative here. When are they going to stop chasing other people (in this case Zeiss and CV) and do something original?

 

 

Walt i have to disagree with you without revenue they can't build a model airplane. These lenses will bring in many many sales to folks that can't or won't jump on the 3k lenses and look elsewhere besides leica to fill there need. Look on this forum alone and see how many own Zeiss and CV lenses owners. If leica can capture the budget market share than that is revenue they need. no one said they won't continue to bring fast wide angles to market , this just covers a marketing area that leica could not do. This will bring in the low end lenses to M8 users and they will sell a ton of these. But leica in my mind has to continue and i believe they think the same way to keep pushing the envelope for extremely fast wide angles and from my talks with them, they are not sitting down and just taking notes. With Steven Lee in charge there making plans and a future , this guy is hired to make revenue plane and simple. This is one great revenue avenue to pursue that goal.

[carstenw]

Guy--

As I recall, Carsten had calculated over 2000 possible variants. Even if the count is just 2^6, you get 64 possible choices without doubling up.

 

And they can always ask us to send our M8s back to have the new 7-bit code reader installed.

 

--HC

I had calculated 64 variants, of which many are still free, plus the option to add an extra dot at the front, since chrome is the same as white and means zero. A black dot at the front would double the number to 128 and remain backwards compatible. There are more than enough codes for now, even if they should add a 24/3.5.

[Bob Ross]

6 lens elements in 4 groups. It sounds like classic Double-Gauss objectives.

 

The new Summarit could retire the 50mm Elmar and the 50mm Summicron.

The original Summarit was a coated upgrade of the Schneider Xenon design. I think that was a modified Double Gauss design and it showed up in Kodak Retinas and large format, too. While Leica usually gives names by f/stop, maybe they are going by the design on these as well as reassigning f/2.5 to the name. Somehow I just can't see them retiring the 50mm Summicron....tweak it, yes, but drop it:eek:

Bob

[sean_reid]

«Qui, moi?»

 

--HC

 

You? no.

 

Not you, just various people on this forum and others. Less expensive lenses that perform very well will make the M8 transition more affordable for new RF photographers. One can already do that with CV lenses and LT-M8 adapters but many people don't know about that or can't believe how good these other lenses are. Having Leica sell their own line of less expensive coded lenses makes a lot of sense, as I imagine you'd agree.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[carstenw]

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IMO, these lenses will compete very effectively with most of the Zeiss lineup, but not as effectively against Voigtländer. The CV lenses are much cheaper and still very good. The Zeiss lenses have three disadvantages on the M8: they are very contrasty (some want that, but many don't; not to this extent), they are awkward-looking physically in many cases, and they have those weird 1/3-stop detents for the aperture. None of those are serious, but if Leica has a similarly priced lineup with better DR (lower contrast), a sleek look and 1/2-stop detents, then Zeiss becomes less attractive in general.

 

I will just reiterate how much sense a 6MP M8 variant with less expensive manufacturing would make. If they could drop the cost to perhaps €2500 (instead of €4200), then a lot of people might jump. The lower MP count would not stop many from buying, since 6MP is enough for most purposes. Everything else could be identical to the M8. They just need to find shortcuts to the manufacturing cost problem. €4200 is a lot of money for a camera, even a Leica.

[sdai]

These lenses will bring in many many sales to folks that can't or won't jump on the 3k lenses and look elsewhere besides leica to fill there need.

 

I highly suspect the folks who are stingy on quality optics will open their wallet for a 5000 dollar camera so this philosophy will not work ... these summarit will probably only entice those who are looking for compact size travel lenses.

 

But how much difference will you see between a leica 35/2.5 and a CV 35/2.5, a Leica 75/2.5 and a CV 75/2.5? the CVs are on sale for a change.

[blakley]

IMO, these lenses will compete very effectively with most of the Zeiss lineup, but not as effectively against Voigtländer. The CV lenses are much cheaper and still very good. The Zeiss lenses have three disadvantages on the M8: they are very contrasty (some want that, but many don't; not to this extent), they are awkward-looking physically in many cases, and they have those weird 1/3-stop detents for the aperture. None of those are serious, but if Leica has a similarly priced lineup with better DR (lower contrast), a sleek look and 1/2-stop detents, then Zeiss becomes less attractive in general.

 

I agree with you on this, Carsten. And again this is smart strategy by Leica. A much lower-cost competitor (CV) probably actually expands Leica's market, by giving students and others without much money a way into rangefinder photography that leads smoothly up into the M-system. This doesn't cut Leica profits much if at all, because the folks in this market can't affort ANY product in the M line.

 

Zeiss is a whole different animal. Compatible M-system products at a small price discount with performance similar to Leica's own are a big threat to M revenues, because they compete directly for the M buyer's dollar. The new Summarits give Leica its own branded alternative, so you can get the cost savings without straying from the brand.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Zeiss fights back. In the meantime, this seems to me like evidence of good management at Leica.

[ho_co]

2^6 is only 64 binary possibilities

-bob

Thanks for the correction, Bob; you're right, of course. (I'm glad I quoted someone else for my error. )

> I was just reminded on another thread that Carsten apparently included the positions of the frame selector lever in his calculations--but that would still make only 2^9 or 512 possibilities. <

 

I suspect these were designed around the M8 and it 1.33 crop factor. ...

No, they're full-frame. The Photoscala page nowhere says they are for reduced sensor, and goes so far as to say that the new series "covers the most-loved focal lengths in the Leica M-system."

 

I think that's also what Guy wanted to say above:

Not a chance these are for full frame, there is a future.

But the punctuation is a bit ambiguous. Could be "Not a chance these are for full frame," or could be "Not a chance; these are for full frame."

 

But these are just what we expect from Leica--lenses at the same general prices as the better Canon and Nikon products, and (what a surprise) usable on the Zeiss Ikon rangefinder as well as on dRFs. Our friends at Leica are getting a bit aggressive!

 

--HC

[grduprey]

You expect a 600 dollar leica lens. never going to happen. They will base the price around the 28 2.8 which here is 1600 dollars I think

 

The idea behind this is a coded lens made by Leica to compete with CV and Zeiss. Think about the market share here and how well these will sell. Right on target in my book

 

The new 28/2.8 Elmarit asph is $1495. I know as i just bought one.

 

Gene

[ho_co]

I had calculated 64 variants, of which many are still free, plus the option to add an extra dot at the front, since chrome is the same as white and means zero. A black dot at the front would double the number to 128 and remain backwards compatible. There are more than enough codes for now, even if they should add a 24/3.5.

 

Oh, well, 64 or 2000--what's the difference between friends? Sheesh. I better forget quotations. Thanks for the correction!

 

Still, if you add the 3-position frame-selector to the already available 64 IDs, you could theoretically get 512 different codes. But that would mean severe jimmying.

 

OK. 64 it is!

 

--HC

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I highly suspect the folks who are stingy on quality optics will open their wallet for a 5000 dollar camera so this philosophy will not work ... these summarit will probably only entice those who are looking for compact size travel lenses.

 

But how much difference will you see between a leica 35/2.5 and a CV 35/2.5, a Leica 75/2.5 and a CV 75/2.5? the CVs are on sale for a change.

 

Simon i have to disagree. here is the scene. nice guy walks into B&H and decides the m8 is the one and is scratching the bank account just to get one and needs a lens, what better than a 1500 dollar lens to start with . Now for guys like me completely different story , we may not have the interest but than again I buy two expensive lenses and the gap lens maybe one of these . It maybe worth buying and trying it out and see what it does. We have to remember that out of 12000 sales of M8 there are a lot of NEW buyers to the system and for hobbyists for most practical terms will buy the cheaper lens to try. If there buying Zeiss than why not stick with a coded leica lens supported by the OEM that makes the camera. I will bet money on the success of these lenses. i think you will be quite surprised at the sales numbers in a year. Look at the 28mm 2.8 you simply can't get one. That lens alone tells a very large story and i bet leica is looking at the sales numbers on the 28 2.8 and seeing the same thing I am seeing, great lens at a great price backordered with huge sales numbers.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Oh, well, 64 or 2000--what's the difference between friends? Sheesh. I better forget quotations. Thanks for the correction!

 

Still, if you add the 3-position frame-selector to the already available 64 IDs, you could theoretically get 512 different codes. But that would mean severe jimmying.

 

OK. 64 it is!

 

--HC

 

I knew that number was sticking around in my head , anyway seems still plenty of space to grow on

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The new 28/2.8 Elmarit asph is $1495. I know as i just bought one.

 

Gene

 

Thanks Gene

[adan]

What's in a name.... I might remind us all that the "Summarit" names has already been adopted for at least one f/2.4 lens - much more recently than for the f/1.5 lenses... (and Summarex was also used for f/1.5, so Summarit is hardly in a 1:1 relationship with that aperture)

 

cameraleather.com Leica 35mm Point and Shoot

[ho_co]

Less expensive lenses that perform very well will make the M8 transition more affordable for new RF photographers. ... Having Leica sell their own line of less expensive coded lenses makes a lot of sense, as I imagine you'd agree.

I agree completely. I mentioned above that the CV and Zeiss product isn't stocked locally; Leica is only barely stocked. This is a very good move for Leica.

 

 

IMO, these lenses will compete very effectively with most of the Zeiss lineup, but not as effectively against Voigtländer. The CV lenses are much cheaper and still very good. The Zeiss lenses have three disadvantages on the M8: they are very contrasty (some want that, but many don't; not to this extent), they are awkward-looking physically in many cases, and they have those weird 1/3-stop detents for the aperture. ...

Absolutely on target. I like the Zeiss look on a Contarex or a Nikon, but it's just a bit hokey on a Leica. And if these Leica designs harken back to the "good old days," as does the C-Sonnar, we'll have the traditional Leica look again, even on digital.

 

This is definitely exciting news. I doubt many people are populating the "what à la carte options do I need for my M8" thread today!

 

--HC

[russell]

Are they going to be harsh and contrasty like the new ASPH lenses or smooth and buttery like the good old days?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks Howard , I can't say what i would like to say.

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Hallo,

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[sdai]

I will bet money on the success of these lenses. i think you will be quite surprised at the sales numbers in a year.

 

Guy, there's no need to bet money on this one ... when we actually meet all the beers are on my tab.