sdai Posted August 3, 2007 Share #21 Posted August 3, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) And right here is where your argument falls apart, so let me repeat... IF YOU SHOOT THEM BOTH AT THE SAME DISTANCE, IT IS THE SAME AS CROPPING AFTER THE FACT. And if you compare the 1.5x image to the same central part of the full frame image, THEY WILL BE IDENTICAL. To state that some kind of magic is going on inside the camera is a ridiculous assertion. You probably think the 2x image from a Olympus will be about as good as the one from a 1Ds. I can't believe this is from you, Jack ... I repeat, the cropped print is the same as a uncropped print, a cropped capture is DIFFERENT from a uncropped capture. I know the 75 lux bokeh is not like this because I had one ... stupid me sold it for a 75 cron. If you could PROVE me wrong, then go for it ... but, if the 75 lux is that bad then dump it. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 3, 2007 Posted August 3, 2007 Hi sdai, Take a look here 75mm Summilux Bokeh. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sdai Posted August 3, 2007 Share #22 Posted August 3, 2007 Last word ... my point is, the variation in effective DoF will affect the look of bokeh, some harsh area may be rendered more smoothly just because of the shallower effective DoF, the bad areas may be even worse because of deeper DoF. So you win, I lose ... and the next thread continues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 3, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 3, 2007 Bokeh can be largely related to the amount of under-corrected spherical aberrations in the lens design. Since these aberrations usually also increase as you move from the center of the image circle to the outer edge of the image circle, it is possible for a crop to eliminate some of the outer edge effects. So I suspect in theory, the bokeh in a crop could appear different enough than the full frame shot to be noticed by some folks. To be sure though, when "The subject didn't change. The distance to the subject didn't change. The light didn't change. The lens didn't change. The sensor didn't change. Only the cropping changed." the only thing possible to be missing is the outer edges, or what got lopped out in the crop. The stuff in the remaining part of the image will look identical. Now if we want to keep the subject size relatively the same with any given lens, we will be required to move in a bit closer with the full-frame camera. This will generate a similar framing but not an identical image, because the perspective changed as soon as we moved the camera position. Since the closer image includes more of the lens' edge effects, I guess this could impart a different look to the image when similar framing is compared -- at least in theory. However, I remain doubtful the edge effect is different enough between a 1.3 crop and full-frame to show a significant difference in the bokeh in an actual image. I'll need to see an example to be convinced... Jack Jack, great point I totally forgot this view thanks for completing it. sdai, I did not mean to put it too strong with my words to offend you but my intention was to add to the point of view as Jack adds his view into the subject. I knew what you meant but you did not completely state it. My words were not meant to insult you at all. IMHO you guys are too smart and I only try to explain it in simple ways to help those that perhaps do not know the subject or thought about it. Peace, -Son Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 3, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 3, 2007 Never mind, Son. My words may sound harsh as well so I apologize ... it's all about a lens and we're all gearheads. LOL Now here's a sample of what a typical 75 lux bokeh would look alike ... sorry, it's a film shot because I no longer have it. Now if this is not good, I'm really speechless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted August 3, 2007 Share #25 Posted August 3, 2007 For a given focal length and given aperture at a given distance, the 'bokeh' is locked in. Regardless of what capture devise, or size, you place behind that lens, the image is already formed. The only way to change the 'bokeh' (given the lens & setting) is to change the distance, which, co-incidentally, will change the composition. Changing the sensor size will only effect the amount of the already formed image that is recorded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted August 3, 2007 Share #26 Posted August 3, 2007 Seems by the time I posted you guys had sorted it. I must learn to type faster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham Minh Son Posted August 3, 2007 Share #27 Posted August 3, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Seems by the time I posted you guys had sorted it. I must learn to type faster. Like I said this is not foreign to these gentlemen; it is just miscommunication that is all. But thanks for straightened/ironed out the concept once again. -Son Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_Flesher Posted August 3, 2007 Share #28 Posted August 3, 2007 You probably think the 2x image from a Olympus will be about as good as the one from a 1Ds. No, but I think that if I used the same lens on both cameras from the same shooting point and cropped the final (larger) PRINT from the 1Ds down to match the full print size of the Olympus, the *bokeh* would appear identical in both! And my apologies for shouting my point out last night -- it was late and I was tired and I got a bit frustrated by your stubbornness. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 3, 2007 Share #29 Posted August 3, 2007 Jack ... I knew you all too well for twisting the topic. LOL I offer my apologies as well. Now I'm off the hook, cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 3, 2007 Share #30 Posted August 3, 2007 The cropped sensor size certainly has its negative impact on bokeh ... these are 35mm FF lenses. Tell me, sdai, do you ever, ever make a positive comment about anything? I agree, the 75mm/1.4 is a stunning lens and I'm more than pleased to have one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 3, 2007 Share #31 Posted August 3, 2007 Tell me, sdai, do you ever, ever make a positive comment about anything? Dear Mark ... I've said a lot of great things about Leica, you could review my post history from my post #1 to ... what's the number of this one now? Perhaps you're only interested in the negative comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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