doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Share #1 Posted July 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) In June I was on a 2 week cycling trip in France where I had the option of carrying my M8 or leaving it in the trip van each day. On the days with less climbing I carried it in the Leica neoprene case which ws then put in a fanny pack. On the really hard climbing days I rode without a camerra. The WATE was a really great lens and I used it mostly without the Frankenfinfer or any other finder. With the instant feedback the LCD screen provides, this worked well for "stree-type" photos and landscape type shots as I could adequately guess as to the FOV. However, for architectural type photos the finder with the spirit level was a big help. I rarely used the finder while riding as it would be too much of a pain to take it on and off. With the Milich adapter system the M8 and WATE fits nicely inside the large Leica neoprene case. Without the Milich adapter system I would not have been able to use the WATE so easily. Like I have said before Leica andf WATE users owe JM big time. Now a few questions for the experts out there: 1) Today I was taking some photos of a rental property I own using the WATE and noticed a vertical line on many but not all shots. I have the latest firmware. I know there has been talk of this sort of thing on earlier threads (which I can't find). Since I have not had the problem before I did not pay much attention to these prior discussions. I have shot about 7500 prior images on each of my 2 M8s and never noticed this vertical line before. I have cleaned the sensor once and was careful not to scatch it. 2) I also notice one very small bright white dot on many of the photos taken of the rental property -all in about the same place which could only be seen when the shots were maximally zoomed in on on the LCD. I have not had a chance to download them yet and am out of town without a laptop so zooming in on the LCD is the best I can do for now. All of the problem shots were in JPEG fine plus DNG so the LCD images are the JPEGs. Any ideas?? Thanks, Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 19, 2007 Posted July 19, 2007 Hi doug_m, Take a look here WATE experience a few questions. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted July 19, 2007 sorry about the typo in the thread title Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 19, 2007 Share #3 Posted July 19, 2007 Doug-- No idea about the white dot. Regarding the vertical line: As I understand it, there are two types of vertical line. One is in the center of the frame and caused by the fact that the M8 sensor (and the sensors of most if not all medium format cameras) is divided electrically at the center to speed information flow: One 'pipe' goes left, the other goes right; quicker than pumping all the data out one end. This line is sometimes called the centerfold, and arises when the two amplifiers are out of synch. From your description I doubt that you have this problem. The other type of vertical line hasn't been fully diagnosed but seems to be a firmware matter. As I understand, it may or may not appear in any given file, but if it appears it will always be in the same place. (I assume there may be more than one such vertical line present, in which they both will always be in the same places if visible.) Summary: Centerfold line is a hardware issue and will need repair when it gets bad enough. The other vertical line is hopefully something that will be corrected in future firmware releases and can't to my knowledge be treated now. I'm sure others will chirp up with more information. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted July 19, 2007 Howard, Thanks for the feedback. Could both the vertical line and the bright white dot be JPEG artifact? I just took some indoor shots in DNG only and there were no vertical lines or white dots. And for whatever its worth- I was able to get amazing detail with the WATE at 16mm, ISO 320 and 1/2 second handheld on some indoor ligt bulb only shots tonight. Even though the finder did not get much use on my cycling trip, its amazing for getting walls vertical and that spirit level not only helps with avoiding tilt but it also helps to train one's hand to be steady on long exposures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted July 19, 2007 PS The vertical line mentiond in the original post was always in the same place - way to the left of center. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 19, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 19, 2007 Doug-- I bet if you posted a picture showing the white dot, someone would have an idea about what caused it. From your description of the vertical line, it isn't a JPG artifact. People who shoot JPG and DNG find that it turns up in both; no one seems to know what causes it. On the good side of the ledger, since it's not the 'centerfold' stripe, it isn't a recognized hardware issue and the camera doesn't have to go back to Solms. On the bad side, it's there, unpredictable and undiagnosed. On a personal level, you're running at least two steps ahead of me: you ride and keep in shape, and you've got a WATE. As for the former, I've about given up nagging myself to get in shape; as for the latter, mine is on order and reports like yours make it sound as if the lens is worth waiting for. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted July 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks Howard. No downloading ability right now as I'm out of town and without a card reader etc. Also the one time I tried to post on this forum the posted photo looked awful. Perrhaps I should give it another go. Yes the WATE (and finder) is worth the delay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns_ng Posted July 19, 2007 Share #8 Posted July 19, 2007 Hi Doug, Is that white dot more apparent at high ISO and longer exposure? I had a similar issue wih my M8. Try this. Set to a high ISO, cap the lens and trigger the camera. Check the image using the LCD screen at the highest magnification. If that dot is there and it appears lighted up, you might have a bright or stuck pixel. I was told to send my M8 back to the factory to change the sensor and electronics. This is the second time my M8 is back at the factory. The first time was for rf alignment. N.S. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_m Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted July 19, 2007 Thanks N S, Yes I can reproduce it using the method you suggest except that I used a short exposure like 1/8000 th. I'll have to try it on my other M8 when I get home.. I wonder if others can find such a white dot by trying your method with short exposures. If so, is there an acceptable # of pixels that be stuck/ burnt out etc or is any number unacceptable from a quality control point of view? Hmmm. Anyone else on the forum with expertise on this issue? Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 20, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 20, 2007 ... is there an acceptable # of pixels that be stuck/ burnt out etc or is any number unacceptable from a quality control point of view? Doug-- See p 16 of Kodak's spec sheet on the M8 sensor, http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business/ccd/global/plugins/acrobat/en/datasheet/fullframe/KAF-10500LongSpec.pdf. See also p 5 of the same file, where Kodak says there is both a Standard Grade and an Engineering Grade of the chip. The allowed defects listed on p 16 are for the Standard Grade; I don't find such a list for the Engineering Grade. Don't know what Leica's tolerances are, nor do I know whether they purchased the Standard or the Engineering Grade of the chip. For more info on the chip, Google "KAF-10500." --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted July 20, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 20, 2007 Typically bad pixels get mapped out by the camera manufacturer and this information is stored with the camera. Some cameras will perform a sensor remap on demand such as the Epson R-D1. My Kodak digital back used to do this whenever the unit powered on. Since this isn't a user function with the M8, I guess it'll need to go back to Leica for a remap. I doubt that they'll replace anything as it is quite common for sensors to have bright or sticky pixels, even if you don't see them due to the firmware mapping. If you have a column of bad pixels then this is a different sensor issue and will definitely need a trip to Leica to resolve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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