Z7 with M lenses vs. M10 -image thread-

[Chaemono]

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I will use this thread to post pictures taken with the same lens on both cameras. If you are wondering what is the Z7 look with M lenses and how does it differ from the M10 look, the answer is the pictures can be made to look pretty much the same. 

 I'll quote Andy in #7 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/274096-goodbye-m240-welcome-m10/

What a camera these days "looks like" is so dependent on post processing skills and knowledge, which "defaults" are chosen, and by who[m] (Leica? Or Adobe? Or the user?), which calibration profile is used, and a host of other variables, that unless those variables are carefully controlled for, there is almost no such thing as "what a camera can do." Well stated.

And if you think that the M10 has a strong contrast map (paraphrasing Andy in #9), then the Z7 is off the charts in this respect. Let's look at some pictures. I tried my best to make these two here look the same. Can you tell the difference? WB a bit better in the second one IMO.

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[Chaemono]

And here the two without any toning adjustments in LR. Both slightly cropped and straightened.

Z7 + Apo 50 Summicron-M

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ISO 400 f/2 @1/60 sec.

 

M10 + Apo 50 Summicron-M

ISO 640 f/2 @1/60 sec.

[Chaemono]

Let's show one more pair. They are close.

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[Chaemono]

And here without any toning adjustments in LR.

Z7 + Apo 50 Summicron-M

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ISO 400 f/2 @1/60 sec.

 

M10 + Apo 50 Summicron-M

ISO 640 f/2 @1/60 sec.

[jay968]

The Z7 is the first non Leica digital camera that I have been happy using M lenses with but I have found that some of what I have shot with does a better job than others.

I've shot with 21SEM, 35LUX ASPH FLE, and 50LUX ASPH.

What I have found is that there is some vignetting using the 21 and to a lesser extent, the 35. The 21 is not quite as easy to correct as the 35. I see no vignetting using the 50.

Upon real close inspection (actually more than 100% viewing), both the 21 and 35 exhibit a bit of sharpness loss across the frame when compared with shots from the M10. Not a major problem but it is noticeable at extreme magnifications. The 50LUX does a better job at maintaining sharpness as compared to shooting with the M10. I find practically no difference whether I shoot with a Z7 or an M10 and since I currently do not have a 50 to use with my Z7, this lens has become the one I will use with the Z7.

I find focusing to be somewhat of an issue with the 21. I do not like focus peaking as I find it to be too inaccurate. 100% magnification helps but with the 21, even this is not easy. Zone focusing using the distance scale on the lens is not possible because for some reason (probably due to the adapter I am using) distance marks are way off if I use them instead of just focusing through the EVF.  Focusing with the 35 is a bit easier but still not great. The 50 is fine and actually somewhat easy to focus through the EVF even without magnification turned on. I'd imagine a 75, 90 or 135 would be real nice.

I find colors to be bit warmer using the Leica M lenses on the Z7 than the Nikon lenses. They actually look very good in this regard.

I have compared the sharpness using both the Z7 and the M10 with the Leica 35LUX against the new Nikon 35 F1.8 S lens and have found that the Nikon is actually the superior lens as far as sharpness is concerned. This was not a surprise to me as it is a very modern lens meant specifically for digital and the Z7 to be exact. It's a great lens. Not that the 35LUX isn't but I think it's probably in need of an upgrade at this point, especially if it to be used with a 45mp sensor.

I also did some comparing using the Nikon 24-70 S. Tough this lens has gotten some pretty good reviews and is very sharp in the center of the frame, it is not in the same league as the 35 or the Leica lenses. Extreme corner sharpness is a disappointment and distortion at the 24mm end is noticeable.

In summary, I would say that the Leica 50LUX is a winner on the Z7. The 35LUX is perfectly usable and capable of some pretty good results, but really not as sharp a lens as the new Nikon 35 1.8S. The 50LUX is very good on the Z7 and besides the different color rendition, hard to tell it wasn't shot using a Leica.

Edited November 26, 2018 by jay968

[Chaemono]

More side by side over/under comparisons below. As mentioned in #1, it's very difficult to identify a camera specific 'look' these days as most pictures taken with a FF or an APS-C camera can be made to look alike in post, especially when looking at them on a screen. But the question here is how well does the Z7 work with M lenses. Some general observations first. It works well but not as well as far as vignetting and corner sharpness is concerned as the M10. I'd say it also has more vignetting than the Sony (will get to this). Also, focus peaking at 200 percent magnification does not work with 35 mm lenses and below. I used a 28 mm M lens yesterday and experienced the same thing as with the 35 Summicron-M. Try it in a store if you get the chance. It's just not there. But at 50 mm and above with shallow DOF focus peaking on the Z7 works brilliantly. I love how precise it is. But I hate it when it's not there because the EVF resolution isn't good enough to focus without it when the DOF is very shallow. And a couple more comments before we finally look at some pictures, I like the stock profile of the Z7 and none of the Adobe profiles in LR. And, auto toning in LR produces really nice results with the Z7 files while I never use auto toning with the M10.

Let's show one picture with the Z7 and an M lens without any over/under comparisons to warm up. The person in the yellow sweater had moved out of the frame by the time I had put the lens on my M10-P.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-232Tmz/

Z7 + Noctilux-M

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[Chaemono]

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Here is why the Z7 shows more vignetting with M lenses than the α7R III, IMO (no pictures comparing them here but I've seen it in others that I had posted and I can add comparisons if someone insists). The lens mount of the Z7 is huge and its Novoflex adapter for M lenses accordingly big. Therefore, the end of the lens barrel will be further away from the sensor than with the Sony. I haven't measured it but it's obvious in the picture below. Be aware that with the Novoflex adapter for the Sony there is still another element protruding from the main part of the adapter that says 'Novoflex' on the front. You can see it in the picture. Still, the Novoflex adapter for the Z7 is wider.

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[Chaemono]

And one comparison with a 28 mm lens wide open below.

Don't be fooled by how contrasty the Z7 pictures look 'out of the box.' This is the way Nikon chose to map the Raw files and the 'look' can be emulated by moving the Clarity slider to the right in LR for the M10 files. The Clarity slider primarily adds contrast to the mid tones, as I understand it, and results in harsher OOF areas. One can see it in the JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Q4J9vG/ comparing the SL vs. Z7, each with their native zooms. A lot of clarity added to the SL picture and none to the Z7 one to try to match. Look how harsh the OOF areas look in each of them. I can provide the Raw files to these as well if someone wants to check. This is the look of the Z7 with its NIKKOR Z 24-70mm f/4 S 'out of the box.' Pictures look really sharp and clear.

Now on the vignetting part, Z7 vs. M10.

Z7 + 28 Summilux-M with some adjustments to try to match. NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g414646071-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=QCjMEHKLQ0xRL7OlNDmh0mg2i1B5uBJn00uisqewZ8E=

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ISO 125 f/1.4 @1/2500 sec.

 

M10 + 28 Summilux-M with some adjustments to try to match. No vignetting adjustment, no profile corrections in LR applied. DNG here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g177492235-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=E3tbWD_yA_lSy6SG384ixpvXrUC0E2vNxqnIUGLoqP4=

ISO 200 f/1.4 @1/3000 sec.

[Chaemono]

One more with links to Raw files for vignetting. I adjusted exposure to match the histograms more or less.

Z7 + 28 Summilux-M NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g29917185-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=4aeYGsBuvKmgRyKwuK5-W1ZazOBVEIA4yvYbFfyCwEs=

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M10 + 28 Summilux-M DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g333582584-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=7WTHBZmTJ4AJXbd8BCylK_G6GPTtlJIeV_hG_nAMYpQ=

[Chaemono]

And one more for corner sharpness. I know, this is not the way to do it. Mount the cameras on a tripod and focus at infinity. But this is the most handy and quick way for me to check. Both handheld, of course, at the exact same shutter speed and Z7 IBIS turned on. Focus is spot on in the Z7 picture as focus peaking is very precise with a 75 mm lens and shallow DOF.

Z7 + 75 Noctilux-M NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g143351634-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=BgyeTZXNNxTkwVnlNvmNIFK7td8t6DwrtcR4UplgUF8=

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ISO 400 f/1.25 @1/125 sec.

 

M10 + 75 Noctilux-M DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g207072781-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Ih7RDUwzqYY3K3gb_5h-4XfAlwDMMGz_iDVuhMs7yjs=

ISO 640 f/1.25 @1/125 sec.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And now the crops from above. I upsized the M10 picture to match the MPx of the Z7 before I cropped. The difference is almost immaterial IMO but, still, it's there.

 

Z7 crop

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M10 crop

Edited December 2, 2018 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

Someone pointed out to me that the focus point may be slightly to the front in the Z7 picture above. Possibly. I'll do more of these over the next month. Here are two more. These are slight crops. Adjustments made to try to match the look.

Z7 NEF file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g162713308-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=TKsToPl3SfK8aYCnl-UynowIU4SeWy3uonyTJqfZPWw=

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M10 DNG file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g2375269-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=uF_UzxskTNbWeW7KAItcMhClrM4KPnlNsnhX8s6GYAI=

Edited December 2, 2018 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

This is with the Z7 and the 50 Noctilux wide open. I must say, the Z7 files are very malleable. Most of the time I prefer the output from the M10 but in this golden yellow the Z7 processing in LR resulted in better treatment of the reflections on the hood of the Lamborghini Miura. The golden yellow just looked better and I can't wait for Adobe to support the M10-P with LR profiles to compare. Working with the Leica stock profile on all of these so far.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-232Tmz/

Z7  + 50 Noctilux at f/0.95

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[pgk]

On 25 November 2018 at 3:13 PM, Chaemono said:

I will use this thread to post pictures taken with the same lens on both cameras. Can you tell the difference?

No. Its a complete waste of time posting web based jpegs to illustrate nuances of difference like this. You might be able to describe the marginal differences of using lenses not designed for current cameras on them but you cannot show it. I would advise you not to keep posting such images as all they do is waste server space.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

No. Its a complete waste of time posting web based jpegs to illustrate nuances of difference like this.

Links to raw files were given repeatedly.

1 hour ago, pgk said:

I would advise you not to keep posting such images as all they do is waste server space.

Right. Just think about how many rude responses one could save for each omitted image. 

[pgk]

The problem is that the images are trying to show that there are differences between a camera designed to take the lenses and ones that are not. The differences are mostly subtle and pointless because camera without sensor microlenses and appropriate software will obviously not work as well with wide lenses as those intended to do so - that is why microlenses and suitable software are used by Leica (otherwise why would they do so?). We've been here before - many times - and we constantly prove exactly what you would expect - that cameras designed to work with such lenses provide (marginally) better files. So the forum simply fills up with images proving what we already know. If the images were relevant (as in contained corner detail relevant to the test and their content) they might show the differences looking at a RAW file - but they don't. So I'm hard on the OP because he has provided similar posts from other cameras that have shown the same thing - very little - and its simply continuing down this pointless path.

[Chaemono]

Paul is right. In the center with 50 mm M lenses and focal lengths above that  the difference between the Z7 and the M10 is just color science and output and the pictures can be made to look pretty much the same in post. So, it’s indeed taking up server space and bandwidth. Having said that, showing more or less vignetting with a 28 mm is important for some to see, I think. I want to do corners with 35 mm and 28 mm M lenses comparing Z7 vs. α7R III vs. M10 but I’ll need to mount them on a tripod and, ideally, use a remote release. And even then I’m not sure I’ll get the focus point to be on the exact same spot. It’ll take me until the holidays to attempt this. 

Just one more thing, if the S1R and the SL2 sensors are anywhere close to the Z7 one (TowerJazz could be the manufacturer but who knows who designes them) but work better with M lenses (pretty sure SL2 will) they would offer real alternatives to a digital M. I know I won’t be keeping the Z7 even if I love the output with a 50 mm or a 75 mm M lens because there is always in the back of my mind that wider lenses just won’t work as well. Still to be shown.

[willeica]

I recently traded in my Nikon D 800e for a Z7, my main user camera just now being an M10. I had been a Nikon user for about 25 years before I took up using Leicas about 10 years ago. I don't particularly believe in camera brand loyalty, even though I now have a collection of about 40 vintage Leicas. Over the years I have used cameras and lenses made by many different manufacturers and they were all pretty good. Nikons were extremely reliable ( probably the most reliable camera brand that I have used) and they had some very good lenses. I have long since sold most of my Nikon lenses, but I have kept some that I thought were particularly good or versatile eg 60mm Micro Nikkor and 85 mm f1.4. I also, as a collector, have an early Nikon F and some lenses from around 1959/60. All that being said, I have never found Nikon lenses to be generally as good as those which have emerged from Wetzlar. I agree with Paul , based on my own experience, that Leica lens give of their best when used on Leica cameras. I bought the Z7 to keep using some of my versatile Nikkor lenses via the FTZ adapter. It really is a compact and versatile camera (my two main reasons for purchase/exchange) and it is a pity that Leica did not produce something with the same dimensions when it introduced the SL. Out of curiosity, I have ordered an M to Z adapter from Novoflex  in Germany and I expect to have it after Christmas.

Some people on other sites have been getting excellent (meaning they were pleased) results with M lenses on the Z7. It is after all a radically different design to Nikon DSLRs with a much shorter distance from flange to sensor. I won't be posting photos taken with the combination here as I think that doing this is frankly a waste of time. I see people doing this on other sites but, as Paul says, there are so many variables, that even if all the photos are just straightforward RAW or JPEG downloads, those variables ( eg viewing screen) will alter the situation. Life is too short for pixel peeping and I usually judge photos by their overall initial impact rather than little corner details. I will be keeping the Z7, probably for many years, but as Paul and others here know, I might just walk out tomorrow and shoot a roll of film with a I Model A or a Vest Pocket Kodak.

William

 

[Chaemono]

Let's do one for corners (one corner to be exact) with the 35 Sumnmicron-M. The cameras were mounted on a tripod, the focus point is spot on (I took several of them on the Z7 to compare as focus peaking does not work at 200 percent magnification with a 35 mm lens), IBIS turned off on the Z7, remote shutter release used for both. I used Aperture Priority Mode with the lens wide open and ISO 125 on the Z7, ISO 200 on the M10. EV of -0.7 was set on both cameras (as I like to do it on the M10 in A Mode) and the Z7 chose 1/25 sec. and the M10 1/60 sec. as shutter speeds for proper exposure. AWB by the cameras and, except for the tint which I didn't bother to remove here (links to Raw files are provided anyway), I like how the M10 exposes most of the time. Granted, the Z7 files are very malleable but this light sensitivity of its sensor leads to brighter Highlights and darker Shadows than the M10. The LUF compressed M10 JPEGs here are from an upsized 45.4 MPx ON1 Resize JPEG version (does a fantastic job to level the pixel playing field).

Z7 + 35 Summicron-M (not quite as extreme corner) NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g217049338-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=1aHvQ3PhWHbkDE0ftzHTNCkT7GPPXtW2xRcMQkmNE34=

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M10 + 35 Summicron-M DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g518342157-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=wx2Gf91GERvrk61nPJDAYhbpD2PD4dn4DFppE_glS8s=

 

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Hallo,

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[Chaemono]

And now the crops. Again, one needs to upsize the M10 picture to 45.4 MPx. 

Z7 (its light sensitivity bothers me in situations like these)

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M10 (crop from a 45.4 MPx upsized JPEG)

Edited December 9, 2018 by Chaemono