Exposing for Highlights

[astrostl]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

The M10 exposes just right.

Sure, if you're concerned with exposure of the center. Sometimes that's true, and sometimes that isn't. It's why other exposure fields (e.g. matrix) were developed, and are now standard.

I appreciate the tradeoffs and the reasons why the M10 is on center-weighted, and like the system overall. It still underexposes by default for me in many scenes, to the point of needing some combination of darker exposure locking, exposure compensation, and/or significant post-processing.

[Chaemono]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb SMAL:

So why have you over exposed these shots then? This isn’t even showing how any of these cameras work. So pretty nonsens. This just shows that you can’t expose correctly.

The pictures include extreme shadows and highlights. They are exposed just right with the M10, Sony clips highlights. Of course, one can argue just use lower ISO on the Sony so it doesn’t clip highlights. Sure, but then the shadows get really dark and it’s tougher to recover details or one has to lift them so much in post that it introduces shadow noise. Can’t have it both ways. That’s why I use scenes with extreme shadows and highlights.

I have more and I can do lower ISO on the Sony if someone insists to give the α7R III a chance to expose correctly for the highlights. But the inferiority of the DR in the Sony pictures will then be evident in the shadows. Either way, the M10 from ISO 200 to ISO 800 will come out ahead. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Chaemono

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[SMAL]

@Chaemono I know it’s senseless to discuss with you as I have read your opinions often enough and while I agree with some things, you sometimes produce real nonsens. 

YOU took a camera and over exposed a photo to then blame the camera. The DR on the Sony A7r3 is so good that you could have kept the highlights and bring back the shadows in post with little to no noise on such a low ISO setting.

It btw wasn’t even the point of this thread. 

[SMAL]

Look you have to know your gear really well in order to get the best possible results.

With Canon you’ll over expose. ETTR.

With Nikon most likely under expose.

With Sony you can do pretty much both, when you don’t mess up like you did.

With the M10 you should definitely under expose or you’ll risk to lose highlights really fast.

The only thing you prove is, that the ISO settings on Sony and Leica are not perfectly the same.

[pico]

5 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

A good incident meter will do the job.

Incident meters know nothing about digital sensors responses,

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by pico

[Chaemono]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb SMAL:

@Chaemono I know it’s senseless to discuss with you as I have read your opinions often enough and while I agree with some things, you sometimes produce real nonsens. 

YOU took a camera and over exposed a photo to then blame the camera. The DR on the Sony A7r3 is so good that you could have kept the highlights and bring back the shadows in post with little to no noise on such a low ISO setting.

It btw wasn’t even the point of this thread. 

I sense some anxiety here. 😀 I'll do lower ISO on the Sony just because you insist. I'll make sure there are extreme shadows in the frame like in the one below. The shadows LR slider at +100 won't suffice to bring back enough details in the Sony pictures. The inferior DR of the α7R III from ISO 200 to ISO 800 will then be evident there. Simple.

α7R III + 35 Summicron-M ISO 640 f/2.0 @1/2000 sec. ARW: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g990824460-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=frciETeTDCTe3qQNfVxYXrASEKulix6_vdmVRc4n7lo=

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

M10 + Summicron-M ISO 640 f/2.0 @1/2000 sec. DNG: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g728140710-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=rLlHuSEDVS3YzQZOdzB-Z_JOjT885uR4Xv0BRRivZTk=

Edited October 15, 2018 by Chaemono

[SMAL]

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@Chaemono it is really tiring to talk with you.

What exactly do you want to prove with the last two RAWs? The A7r3 shot downscaled to the resolution of the M10 is way cleaner when I pull up the shadows and blacks to +100. The A7r3 is also 1/3 of a stop brighter than the M10.

[Chuck Albertson]

2 hours ago, pico said:

Incident meters know nothing about digital sensors responses,

 

Mine does. I've trained it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdyosItw3Mk

 

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb astrostl:

The M10 is my first and only Leica, and like SMAL I also find that it tends to underexpose, not overexpose, by default. I've gotten used to pointing at the ground to lock in exposure before addressing a scene with skies in it, so that I'm not past the point of no return in terms of recovering shadows.

Really, SMAL thinks it underexposes? Well, I'm sure he didn't mean it this way. Sometimes SMAL just talks nonsense. Look here how nicely the M10 exposes without any need to point it to the ground first. 

α7R III + 35 Summicron-M ISO 640 f/2.0 @1/2000 sec. ARW file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g610015734-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=-M5ERUtgNG5qfO7959xhgKvOPcO7f3HY4TofC68ZkSQ=

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

M10 + 35 Summicron-M ISO 640 f/2.0 @1/2000 sec. DNG file: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g765866874-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=UCkIV_ils323HFI6Ri0XIZKXOv29P8aYXnh-iT5ZoUY=

[astrostl]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Look here how nicely the M10 exposes without any need to point it to the ground first. 

That composition is made for center-weighting, and sky takes up perhaps 10% of the frame w/o bleeding into the meter.

The issue appears much more prominently in horizon shots (e.g. beaches), especially with wider lenses. 

[Guest Nowhereman]

astrosi - Exactly. The tendency of the M10 to blow or exaggerate highlights is particularly troublesome when shooting into the light or even when there is strong sidelight: sure, I expose for the highlights and sometimes underexpose by 1-2+ stops and raise the shadows in Lightroom — but the M10 blows highlights, or renders highlights much lighter, than the M9 and the MM that I used to shoot with. 

Chaemono is not the only one who has directly compared files from the M10 to those of the Sony A7rIII. Others have concluded the opposite:  that the Sonly is better in not overstating ISO values and in retaining details in highlights at the same exposure. In making comparisons, several people have suggested that it's pointless to match the exposure based on the same aperture and shutter speed because the M10 is overstating the ISO — and have found, by matching Raw histograms of identical scenes, the M10 exposes consistently at EVs less than the A7rIII — and, still, the M10 blows highlights when the A7rIII does not.

This thread is about exposing for the highlights. Here is an example of the problem that I have with the M10: The other day I took a portrait in a café here in Chiang Mai. The soft morning light — overcast day in the rainy season — was coming straight into the lens, through a window, behind the subject, sitting in profile. I underexposed manually enough not to blow any highlights. In Lightroom, after lifting the shadows +48 and the exposure +0.4 and pulling back on highlights, reducing contrast as well as some burning and dodging, the light on the on the subject looks very good, but the road surface seen through the window still looks like a highlight rather than medium gray (Zone V). That's because of the M10's weird rendition of highlights, making the too light, particularly skewed when lit by backlight (coming straight into the lens). Even when the backlight is not that strong highlights are rendered much lighter than what they are — and that is true also problematic for sidelights. I'm not that fond of camera that is great for when the light comes from behind  me.

Now, despite already having spent a lot of time processing this particular picture, I can spend a lot more to get the view out the window looking somewhat what like I want it to be — but in many other shots, shot into the light or with strong sidelight, the M10's rendering of highlights just cannot be adequately repaired.

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[Chaemono]

We would review the image on the display and add some positive exposure compensation if needed. That’s what that dial is for. Not an issue. An issue would be if the M10 wouldn’t be able to handle the scene and the excellent DR of the M10 between ISO 200 and ISO 800 easily can. BTW, I have some Raw files comparing M10 and X1D. In terms of DR, the M10 does superbly with the Summicrons in those comparisons. I may post those at some point just for the heck of it.

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nowhereman:

astrosi - Exactly. The tendency of the M10 to blow or exaggerate highlights is particularly troublesome when shooting into the light or even when there is strong sidelight: sure, I expose for the highlights and sometimes underexpose by 1-2+ stops and raise the shadows in Lightroom — but the M10 blows highlights, or renders highlights much lighter, than the M9 and the MM that I used to shoot with. 

_______________
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All this time I was thinking, Nowhereman is nowhere, man. So, here you are. Yes, I know, you posted some compressed JPEG to prove this, LOL.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nowhereman:

 

This thread is about exposing for the Highlights.

This thread is about unsubstantiated claims that the M10 either underexposes or blows highlights. It basically comes down to fake news and the resale value of my M10 and you best believe it ain't gonna be the resale value of my M10. 

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nowhereman:

Chaemono is not the only one who has directly compared files from the M10 to those of the Sony A7rIII. Others have concluded the opposite:  

Others don't post links to Raw files.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nowhereman:

This thread is about exposing for the highlights. Here is an example of the problem that I have with the M10: The other day I took a portrait in a café here in Chiang Mai. The soft morning light — overcast day in the rainy season — was coming straight into the lens, through a window, behind the subject, sitting in profile. I underexposed manually enough not to blow any highlights. In Lightroom, after lifting the shadows +48 and the exposure +0.4 and pulling back on highlights, reducing contrast as well as some burning and dodging, the light on the on the subject looks very good, but the road surface seen through the window still looks like a highlight rather than medium gray (Zone V). That's because of the M10's weird rendition of highlights, making the too light, particularly skewed when lit by backlight (coming straight into the lens). Even when the backlight is not that strong highlights are rendered much lighter than what they are — and that is true also problematic for sidelights. I'm not that fond of camera that is great for when the light comes from behind  me.

Now, despite already having spent a lot of time processing this particular picture, I can spend a lot more to get the view out the window looking somewhat what like I want it to be — but in many other shots, shot into the light or with strong sidelight, the M10's rendering of highlights just cannot be adequately repaired.

Yes, I'm convinced now, LOL. This is very amusing.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Guest Nowhereman]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

...It basically comes down to fake news and the resale value of my M10 and you best believe it ain't gonna be the resale value of my M10...

Also, da liegt der Hund begraben. Now we know what lies behind your ad nauseam posting of misdirected comparisons. Indeed, astrostl's post #30 reveals just one of them. But don't worry, I won't engage with you again.
_______________
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[Chaemono]

Whew! What a relief. The forum bullies almost had me convinced that I had to stop posting links α7R III ARW files on the Leica forum. 

[Michael Naylor]

Getting back to my original post, I'm currently using a Q in full manual mode.  I'm loving the idea of getting back to basics.  The Q's lens even has a DOF scale!  So I'm dreaming of owning an M10-P and 2 or 3 of Leica lenses...

I'm sold on the idea of using a range finder optical viewfinder, but I've also grown to appreciate the speed of assessing highlight clipping via the Q's live view EVF.  So my question was, what would be speediest way of assessing highlight clipping with an M10?

I'm not interested in hearing what a Sony can do, because it isn't a Leica.

[Chaemono]

Yes, but others here do. So, stay tuned.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Chaemono

[Michael Naylor]

6 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Yes, but others here do. So, stay tuned.

If I was interested in non range finder cameras I wouldn't be trolling a Leica forum.

Edited October 16, 2018 by mkenaylor

[pgk]

Look, exposure is not an absolute. For critical film work photographers used to shoot polaroids, assess the lighting and exposure, adjust and shoot film. We can do just the same on digital but much more easily. If in doubt take a shot, assess, amend settings. It really isn't rocket science. And FWIW there is no foolproof metering system; all need to be used with some understanding of what they are telling you.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

16 minutes ago, mkenaylor said:

Getting back to my original post, I'm currently using a Q in full manual mode.  I'm loving the idea of getting back to basics.  The Q's lens even has a DOF scale!  So I'm dreaming of owning an M10-P and 2 or 3 of Leica lenses...

I'm sold on the idea of using a range finder optical viewfinder, but I've also grown to appreciate the speed of assessing highlight clipping via the Q's live view EVF.  So my question was, what would be speediest way of assessing highlight clipping with an M10?

I would go for full manual mode with the M10 too. I always do that myself. To me, that is the fastest, most natural, most direct and reliable way to use a Leica M. I may take a look at the exposure metering (red dot and arrows) in the viewfinder before the first shot, but only as a clue for my manual settings.

To preserve the highlights, I simply point the viewfinder against the light source and adjust the ISO/shutter speed/aperture so the right red arrow disappears. If I have time, I may take a test shot and eventually make some adjustments before I go on. As long as the light is the same, I don’t need to bother anymore with the exposure and can rather concentrate on more important things, like capturing the right moments.

And if  something goes wrong, I can only blame myself, not the camera.