Morten Grathe Posted July 9, 2007 Share #1 Posted July 9, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Shot this photo at a wedding saturday. When I opened it today, I noticed horrible amounts of moire. Any ideas to get rid of it? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28597-moire/?do=findComment&comment=301692'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Hi Morten Grathe, Take a look here Moire. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
robertwright Posted July 9, 2007 Share #2 Posted July 9, 2007 I would take areas not moired and layer mask and blend them over the moired parts. A retouchers strategy if you will. anything else will really be obvious. the good part is that the jacket is relatively uniform, a repeatable fabric pattern, you will be able to blend the areas well, then you can burn and dodge some shading back in afterwards. all this assumes you are comfortable retouching on layer masks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted July 9, 2007 Share #3 Posted July 9, 2007 I patched a few areas out, hastily, you have to match density and color balance too, which is doable on layer masks. You patch a few areas, flatten the image or copy it, and then you can take larger patches from what you have fixed. sort of like making a new suit... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28597-moire/?do=findComment&comment=301699'>More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 9, 2007 Share #4 Posted July 9, 2007 I use the C1 Moire plug-in which works very well. I use it on the full frame, then revert the file to the previous state and use the history brush to paint it in only in the areas needed. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted July 9, 2007 Share #5 Posted July 9, 2007 I use the C1 Moire plug-in which works very well. I use it on the full frame, then revert the file to the previous state and use the history brush to paint it in only in the areas needed. Cheers, Sean It is troublesome that Leica supplies us with C1Le, yet you need the pro version to do Moire removal, a necessity on this camera obviously. you could obtusely argue that the camera is "incomplete" without this ability to do moire removal, whatever in camera processing is not enough. It is another burden on M8 owners to spend money to upgrade C1, add filters, etc. All of this is not without consequence on their ability to sell the camera as a competitive tool with other pro level tools. I think really it is phase's problem, they don't have a product between Le and Pro to address cameras like the M8 that don't need all the pro tools like tethered shooting, but do need the moire removal and scaling features of the pro version. So they give us Le, unwilling to part with c1pro, which they give away with medium format backs at that price point. They could do C1dslr, or something like that, ~250$, a step up and feature complete version for dslr users, with better editing tools or metadata features, and then compete with Lr and Aperture more closely. C1 does produce "cleaner" conversions than other competitors, but the gap is closing rapidly, their price should too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmsr Posted July 9, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 9, 2007 I use the C1 Moire plug-in which works very well. I use it on the full frame, then revert the file to the previous state and use the history brush to paint it in only in the areas needed. Cheers, Sean I used to do this also, but only have CS3 on the machine now. The C1 Moire plug-in doesn't work with CS3 yet. I checked the Phase One website and its forums, only to find several posts about the same issue of that it is not working in CS3. I hope they make an update that does work with CS3 soon. Best, Ray If anyone does have the plug-in working in CS3, please let me know how. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted July 10, 2007 Share #7 Posted July 10, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) does the photoshop plugin come with Le? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morten Grathe Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted July 10, 2007 Thanks guys. It looks like there is no easy way out. Back to work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted July 10, 2007 Share #9 Posted July 10, 2007 Regardless of whether it can be fixed, what brings it on and how can it be prevented? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 10, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 10, 2007 Rob-- Moiré is an interference pattern caused by feeding high detail to a sensor unable to accept that amount of detail. Avoid it by using an 'anti-aliasing' filter, aka 'low-pass filter' since it passes image detail only below a certain resolution. Neither most medium-format cameras nor the M8 use AA filters, because the goal in all cases is to get the most detail to the sensor. Most if not all other miniature-format cameras incorporate AA filters, putting an upper limit on their resolution. Moiré is seldom a problem, and various solutions exist for correction in post-processing, some of which are noted above. A second reason for the lack of low-pass filter in the M8 is the technical one (discussed in many threads here, in LFI articles, in many M8 reviews, etc) that putting more glass between the lens and the sensor would create additional negative side effects, including loss of sharpness to the edges of the frame due to diffraction within the extra glass, increased vignetting for similar reasons, increased internal reflections etc. How to avoid it: Use cheap lenses with the M8. Don't focus accurately with the M8. Don't use an M8. Moiré is a sign that your lens' performance has reached or exceeded the limits of the sensor. Strictly my formulation. I'm sure someone can offer more help, and invite anyone's assistance. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
psquared Posted July 10, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 10, 2007 Morten, How much moire do you see at 100%? Is it as bad as you see on the small size jpg here? Reducing the image size can introduce moire as well. One way to reduce the moire introduced by image size reduction is to reduce the size by 15 - 20% increments and not all at once. Here's an example from a DMR shot: Reduction from full size to 800x533 pixels in one step: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Reduction from full size to 800x533 pixels in 20% increments: 100% crop of the pants: Happy campers, aren't they? Their dad forced to go them on a hike! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Reduction from full size to 800x533 pixels in 20% increments: 100% crop of the pants: Happy campers, aren't they? Their dad forced to go them on a hike! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/28597-moire/?do=findComment&comment=302237'>More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 10, 2007 Share #12 Posted July 10, 2007 It is troublesome that Leica supplies us with C1Le, yet you need the pro version to do Moire removal, a necessity on this camera obviously. you could obtusely argue that the camera is "incomplete" without this ability to do moire removal, whatever in camera processing is not enough. It is another burden on M8 owners to spend money to upgrade C1, add filters, etc. All of this is not without consequence on their ability to sell the camera as a competitive tool with other pro level tools. I think really it is phase's problem, they don't have a product between Le and Pro to address cameras like the M8 that don't need all the pro tools like tethered shooting, but do need the moire removal and scaling features of the pro version. So they give us Le, unwilling to part with c1pro, which they give away with medium format backs at that price point. They could do C1dslr, or something like that, ~250$, a step up and feature complete version for dslr users, with better editing tools or metadata features, and then compete with Lr and Aperture more closely. C1 does produce "cleaner" conversions than other competitors, but the gap is closing rapidly, their price should too. Perhaps 4.0 will have the features needed at a lower price. I have no idea what levels and pricing are planned. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 10, 2007 Share #13 Posted July 10, 2007 I used to do this also, but only have CS3 on the machine now. The C1 Moire plug-in doesn't work with CS3 yet. I checked the Phase One website and its forums, only to find several posts about the same issue of that it is not working in CS3. I hope they make an update that does work with CS3 soon. Best, Ray If anyone does have the plug-in working in CS3, please let me know how. I didn't realize that, I'm still using CS2. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmb_ Posted July 10, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 10, 2007 The plug-in works on Windows with CS3 but not on Mac as I understand it. I run Windows/CS3 and the plug-in works for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted July 10, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 10, 2007 Howard thanks. I am aware it is an interference pattern and that the 8 doesn’t have a filter. I should imagine though that someone might take a shot of that coat in a hundred different locations and not get the problem. What are the areas like when viewed in full crop? If you want to avoid moire in practice is it also something you can hedge around with iso, so the cameras sensitivity is changed, or something, or be aware of contrast detail in bright light? Surely there must be a set of circumstances that might trigger the warning bells and you could take steps to avoid it? In aside, in both instances there are huge exposure differences between the “moired” fabric and the adjacent background. I notice the whole jacket isn’t affected and the areas aren’t all in one plane of focus so what conditions come together at those points to fry the image? Peter thanks. If it is an overload problem is it less likely if RAW format and more likely when you overload the algorithm when writing to jpeg in camera? I have noticed I got it on screen when processing (not from m8 files) but in print the thing had disappeared. It was nothing like this though and may not have been related. Would this somehow be something that could be alarmed, or somehow highlighted on the lcd, like clipped exposure? I gather that maybe firmware progression might alleviate the problem? Sorry to be dense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted July 10, 2007 Share #16 Posted July 10, 2007 One way to reduce the moire introduced by image size reduction is to reduce the size by 15 - 20% increments and not all at once. Peter - you're spot on with the incremental reduction technique - I had similar problems with a man in a striped denim jacket ... I now export from LR to PS CS3 and have set up a 5 step reduction action to bring things to screen resolution... Moire problem? What problem... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 10, 2007 Share #17 Posted July 10, 2007 One way to reduce the moire introduced by image size reduction is to reduce the size by 15 - 20% increments and not all at once. Peter-- Wow! Thanks very much for the illustration! What version of Photoshop are you using? I had heard that incremental reduction was less necessary on later versions of the program than previously, but it looks as if that's not the case! Great examples! --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 10, 2007 Share #18 Posted July 10, 2007 Howard thanks. I am aware it is an interference pattern and that the 8 doesn’t have a filter. Rob-- My apologies for answering you on such a simplistic level above. Thanks for restating the question in more depth; it is far deeper than I could even hope to answer. I'll also be very curious to see responses. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmsr Posted July 11, 2007 Share #19 Posted July 11, 2007 The plug-in works on Windows with CS3 but not on Mac as I understand it. I run Windows/CS3 and the plug-in works for me. Charles - I'm on a Mac. Best Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted July 11, 2007 Share #20 Posted July 11, 2007 Rob You could shoot the same jacket in a hundred different locations and,providing you maintain the same shooting distance,moire will be present in every case. Moire occurs when the pattern,and size,of the moire-producing subject,roughly equals the arrangement and size of the sensors 'pixels'. In some situations you can pre-eliminate moire by turning the camera slightly off axis (horizontal or vertical) creating a situation where the sensor 'pixels' and subject content do not line up either horizontally or vertically. This works well,and reasonably predictably,for obvious moire-prone architectural details such as venetian blinds in windows or air conditioning ductwork that are typically oriented vertically or horizontally or vertically. Content such as certain fabrics are more problematic because ,as in the case of the jacket,the fabric,when worn by a person,is oriented on many different angles and tilting the camera slightly will only serve to change the area affected by moire. I don't believe you will find any source that will support the idea that moire is more prevalent due to in camera jpeg processing as compared to a Raw file. Mark P.S.-a search for eliminating moire,on Google,will yield a half dozen Photoshop techniques that work quite well and don't require Capture One Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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