So a new S is coming.

[Paul J]

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Any idea when?

[BernardC]

A 60MP Nikon will really shake up the Medium Format world.

(...)

The Sony A9 Pro camera which is supposedly close

 

Like I said before, it seems you are just waiting for the next thing.

 

I am not at all confident that 60 MP is desirable in a 35mm camera.

This whole trend reminds me of people who used to experiment with Kodak Technical Pan film. It was a film that gave extremely fine grain and high sharpness, at the cost of very slow speed and high contrast. The only way to get anything passable out of it was to use the heaviest tripod, the finest lenses, the most meticulous technique, and special chemistry. One shot out of ten would be acceptable.

 

Eventually many figured-out that you could get similar results, and a much higher hit rate, with any medium format camera and a roll of Plus-X.

[Paul J]

Like I said before, it seems you are just waiting for the next thing.

 

I am not at all confident that 60 MP is desirable in a 35mm camera.

This whole trend reminds me of people who used to experiment with Kodak Technical Pan film. It was a film that gave extremely fine grain and high sharpness, at the cost of very slow speed and high contrast. The only way to get anything passable out of it was to use the heaviest tripod, the finest lenses, the most meticulous technique, and special chemistry. One shot out of ten would be acceptable.

 

Eventually many figured-out that you could get similar results, and a much higher hit rate, with any medium format camera and a roll of Plus-X.

 

 

You are assuming wrongly when you say I am just waiting for the next thing - I am looking for the right thing. If I had a solution to that I wouldn't even be looking. You are also comparing different eras which is somewhat irrelevant. The industry is completely different to what it was then. For added giggles, I never had the problems with Tech Pan you talk about. We were required to use a lot in university even as first years with little skill. Medium Format and Plus X will not yield the same contrast and tonality as Techpan without considerable darkroom work. 

[Deliberate1]

At what price point do you think the new S will be released? To my mind (and for my money) the Fuji GFX ($6500) and the Hasselblad ($9000) set the new price point for the format, and one that is a fraction of the release prices of the S2, 006 and 007. Does Leica attempt to distinguish the new S from its competitors and release at a markedly higher price point, to preserve its cultivated status as a product in a unique class, or does it price in light of the Fuji and Hasselblad models so as not to lose existing S shooters or those new to the format, thereby eviscerating the secondary market price for existing S models. For what its worth, I bought a certified S 006 in new condition in 11/15 for $6500. That is my price point and, frankly, what I think the body is worth despite, or because of, the quality issues that are well illuminated on this board. I fully expect to be able to buy an 007 at that price point, or for even less if Leica prices the 008 close to the secondary market price of the 007.

[Jeff S]

Depends which source: "Q: Can you provide us with an overview of the how the various ranges within the Leica portfolio have been doing?

Oliver: We have enriched our portfolio over the last three years with the introduction of the Leica Q, the introduction of the SL, and the S."

 

100mp might be an incredible leap on a heavy tripod, not the way a lot of people use the S. Phase One is a studio camera system, it makes sense there. I can not say I have compared an old Phase One 60mp back to a S, only the Hasselblad 50C which I own. I would guess we would need IS lenses for such a beast. 

 

Have you had personal service, trust and competency issues with Leica? I ask this because from what I can see from many posters is serial repetition. They repeat and repeat the same information, often not even their own personal experience. So, one autofocus failure for one person will get mentioned dozens of not hundreds of times over a few years. I know the autofocus is a real issue and I'm glad they seem to have a fix. I'd also love to know what the actual percentage of failures is. Is it 1% or 99% I'm betting its much closer to 1% than 99%

 

I have all the S lenses except the 180mm and 30mm, I had one failure of my 45mm and it happened with virtually no usage. My others are going strong. My personal Leica issues over the past 15 years have been out of alignment M9M sensor, M9 sensor corrosion and the 45S lens autofocus issue. I've owned and own a lot of Leica, most of it is trouble free including a S006, S007, M8, M9, M9M, M6, SL and a few dozen lenses. The M9M and M9 were fixed quickly and perfectly. The 45S we shall see, I can't seem to get a dialogue going with leica NJ and have spoken with Leica Germany and will likely just send it there myself. 

 

My only gripe with Leica is the inability for Leica NJ to communicate. This is a major problem. For Leica, this seems to be a Leica NJ issue. The rest of the world seems well taken care of from the reports I have seen. 

 

Just to add, I have never paid $1 for any service. 

 

I recently spoke with the owner of a major US Leica dealer, one that led the early promotion of Leica S sales since product introduction.  His biggest current frustration is that Leica won't even return HIS calls on a timely basis.

 

As to the frequency of S breakdowns (cameras and lenses), I think one need only look to his current S sales policy (having sold S systems to lots of folks, including members reporting here and on other forums).  If someone expresses interest in a new S system, he will take the time to explain the service/repair situation and, if they are still interested, he will sell the gear AT HIS COST....no profit.  Do you think he would do that if there was a 99% chance that nothing would go wrong?

 

Jeff

[Joshua Lowe]

Eventually many figured-out that you could get similar results, and a much higher hit rate, with any medium format camera and a roll of Plus-X.

I think the drive to larger sensors is inevitable. The Canon 1Ds was pretty exotic when it came out at $8,000 in 2002. The global slowdown of the camera market means the camera companies are more risk averse, but things need to move forward.

[EoinC]

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Like I said before, it seems you are just waiting for the next thing.

 

I am not at all confident that 60 MP is desirable in a 35mm camera.

This whole trend reminds me of people who used to experiment with Kodak Technical Pan film. It was a film that gave extremely fine grain and high sharpness, at the cost of very slow speed and high contrast. The only way to get anything passable out of it was to use the heaviest tripod, the finest lenses, the most meticulous technique, and special chemistry. One shot out of ten would be acceptable.

 

Eventually many figured-out that you could get similar results, and a much higher hit rate, with any medium format camera and a roll of Plus-X.

Tech Pan was one of my favourite films back in the 1980's. For what I worked on, it was great.

[JeffWright]

I am glad though, that finally, i feel like I am getting closer to a decision on platform, probably for a next decade of use. Very soon we will have more of a level playing field in terms of brands playing their hands - This new S, Nikon D850, Sony A7r3, A9, Fuji, Hasselblad, Phase One, will have all their pending models for people to choose from, rather than wait and see what is around the corner, like it has been for the last couple of years. These days I think it's the Nikon that makes most sense in terms of a balance between future proofing, lens choice, image quality and price. A 60MP Nikon could really shake things up.

 

 

A 60 MP 24 mm x 36mm 'full frame' mirrorless or DSLR sensor will be diffraction limited at about f/8, so the only real shake up will be in terms of limited depth of field. Unless some manufacturer is able to come up with some sort of exotic alternative pixel architecture, I think 'full frame' is going to top out in the 40-50 range because of diffraction problems at smaller apertures.  That's certainly been my experience with the Canon 5DsR, where only a handful of lenses can handle the 50MP sensor competently, and diffraction limitation creeps in at f/11. There's just clearly a point of diminishing returns for sensor density, where more isn't necessarily better.  Similarly, the S architecture will probably be about maxed out at 80 megapixels...but one can make pretty darned good prints from 37MP S files now. 

 

I'm perfectly happy buying like new S lenses at fire sale prices, they are solid performers, and I don't much use autofocus anyway.

[djmay]

I always get a return phone call from Leica Wetzlar. I do not have to leave a voice mail if there is no answer. The guy I call sees my number, knows who I am and returns the call. And I am not a famous photographer.

 

Just because there are complaints described on this forum, and I have described my complaints as well, it does not mean that this affects the majority of Leica users. As I have described in the aftermath of my disaster, Leica has been proactive with me. I tend to think if the problems were so frequent, I would not be getting the attention that I have received.

 

As for the new S, I have no inside information. When I was younger I was an early adopter. Now, I am at usually one generation back because I want to see the product mature before I dive in. Therefore, even if the new S is 60+ megapixel, I will let others prove the product (unless Leica wants me to be a tester). It is not because of Leica, it is any technology product.

 

If anyone is discarding the S system, let me know and I will gladly take a 24mm off your hands.

 

Jesse

[Manolo Laguillo]

 

 

If anyone is discarding the S system, let me know and I will gladly take a 24mm off your hands.

 

Jesse

 

me too...

[Jeff S]

I always get a return phone call from Leica Wetzlar. I do not have to leave a voice mail if there is no answer. The guy I call sees my number, knows who I am and returns the call. And I am not a famous photographer.

 

 

 

 

Well, you're doing better than a major US Leica dealer (post #25), although I suspect many of his dealings are with Leica NJ.

 

Jeff

[hoppyman]

At what price point do you think the new S will be released? To my mind (and for my money) the Fuji GFX ($6500) and the Hasselblad ($9000) set the new price point for the format, and one that is a fraction of the release prices of the S2, 006 and 007. Does Leica attempt to distinguish the new S from its competitors and release at a markedly higher price point, to preserve its cultivated status as a product in a unique class, or does it price in light of the Fuji and Hasselblad models so as not to lose existing S shooters or those new to the format, thereby eviscerating the secondary market price for existing S models. For what its worth, I bought a certified S 006 in new condition in 11/15 for $6500. That is my price point and, frankly, what I think the body is worth despite, or because of, the quality issues that are well illuminated on this board. I fully expect to be able to buy an 007 at that price point, or for even less if Leica prices the 008 close to the secondary market price of the 007.

 I don't think that Leica Camera will market any of their premium products to match the price points of other brands that you mention, at least I don't think that has ever been their strategy.

I think that, if you already have a large investment in lenses for a particular system the equation might change too. Personally, I think that the native lenses are the best choice for any brand too and avoid adapters and compromises as far as practicable. 

Everyone makes their own judgement on value for money/ what you are willing and able to spend of course.

 

We seem to be extremely fortunate to have a number of choices in medium format digital now and this is after all only a tiny niche of the overall market.

[hoppyman]

I recently spoke with the owner of a major US Leica dealer, one that led the early promotion of Leica S sales since product introduction.  His biggest current frustration is that Leica won't even return HIS calls on a timely basis.

 

As to the frequency of S breakdowns (cameras and lenses), I think one need only look to his current S sales policy (having sold S systems to lots of folks, including members reporting here and on other forums).  If someone expresses interest in a new S system, he will take the time to explain the service/repair situation and, if they are still interested, he will sell the gear AT HIS COST....no profit.  Do you think he would do that if there was a 99% chance that nothing would go wrong?

 

Jeff

Jeff that seems extraordinary that an authorised dealer would sell new Leica equipment at cost. I can't imagine that the parent company would approve or even permit that policy (National branch or Germany). That would directly disadvantage any other authorised dealer. 

I can only think that the dealer may have been referring to sales of used equipment????? (I know that you said new system customers) or is no longer going to be an authorised dealer and is clearing their stock (as has happened here). Perhaps different countries have different pricing policies too, I guess.

 

For my two cents though these posts may easily lead to people reading them to speculate which dealer has said this and been quoted. That could be detrimental to everyone, in my opinion.

[Jeff S]

I'm only repeating what I was told....and I wasn't asked to keep it private (although I chose not to specify the dealer by name).  He talked about new gear.  And I'm confident that he's communicated with Leica.  Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Wouldn't it be sweeter if Leica communicated with everyone else about the issues, fix(es) and service protocol, timing, etc?  That's what's 'detrimental' to everyone involved.

 

Jeff

[albireo_double]

If my contact is correct we can see 60 megabytes and 4 f/s

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I've heard something about modification of existing 007s, turning them into 008s. Specs, timetable and cost not clear. I'd like such a solution; tired or replacing whole cameras and computers every time a new chip comes along. If Leica can pull this off, at a fair cost, I'll support them. But I find it hard to believe.

[hoppyman]

I'm only repeating what I was told....and I wasn't asked to keep it private (although I chose not to specify the dealer by name).  He talked about new gear.  And I'm confident that he's communicated with Leica.  Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Wouldn't it be sweeter if Leica communicated with everyone else about the issues, fix(es) and service protocol, timing, etc?  That's what's 'detrimental' to everyone involved.

 

Jeff

Not shooting the messenger Jeff nor doubting what you posted. I am just more than surprised at the reported situation. Anecdotally different countries seem to have varying experiences commented on too. I only have experience with my own and with Germany. I am very interested to see what this reported new S will be for sure.