Very torn, should I get a S type 006, S type 007 or just use my SL???

[dfarkas]

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OH you are from the Miami Leica Store! I deal with all of the California variations, from Tibor at Samy's to the flagship Beverly Hills Leica Store and Gallery to the guys and gals up in SF...

 

The S typ006 came WAY down on the used market. That doesn't particular give me hope in a lot of ways of keeping a system I can resell if need be and it work out even. IT seems to have a similar digital obsolecense to other manufacturers, which is odd for a Leica!!

 

I am a fashion and portrait photographer, some reportage and "street". The Pentax has given me some life of late, but I just can't seem to shake the feeling that to keep consistent images I should stick with my Leica base.

 

 

It's really just thinking about the 006 or 007 at this point, and putting my Pentax on the market I suppose.

 

 

Yes, my wife and I own Leica Store Miami. Additionally, I publish and write for Red Dot Forum. Don't worry, though. We ship to our customers all over the world.  

 

Prices have indeed come down for S006. We currently have a CPO S006 for $7,995: http://leicastoremiami.com/collections/used-s-cameras/products/certified-pre-owned-leica-s-typ-12

 

But..... if you can swing it, I'd highly recommend the S007 over the S006. The additional speed, ISO capability, live view functionality, and dynamic range all make for a much more flexible camera. 

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 

 

 

But..... if you can swing it, I'd highly recommend the S007 over the S006. The additional speed, ISO capability, live view functionality, and dynamic range all make for a much more flexible camera. 

 

Exactly 

[bilbrown]

The S typ006 came WAY down on the used market. That doesn't particular give me hope in a lot of ways of keeping a system I can resell if need be and it work out even. IT seems to have a similar digital obsolecense to other manufacturers, which is odd for a Leica!!

 

EVERY digital camera, not limited to Leica btw, comes WAY down in price once it has been out for a few years. With Leica you do pay a premium - goes with the territory, just like buying a new car. That said, Leica digital cameras continue to provide excellent results regardless of age. It all comes down to how good a photographer you are. James Russell, one of the top professional cameramen working today, still uses an S2 and gets wonderful results. IMO, too many photographers chase the latest and greatest when what they should really be pursuing is using what they have and perfecting their technique.

 

 

 

Yeah, the S006 is in some cases close to a used M240! That's REALLY STRANGE... gave me pause...

 

However, also gives me hope to get one. Not to resell, but to keep.

 

Notice also, most of those on the used market are a really really low shutter count. Like someone got it, either shelved it or switched out to another system.

 

I just want to stay Leica all the way, in hopes of a mirrorless S sometime in the next couple years.

[bilbrown]

Yes, my wife and I own Leica Store Miami. Additionally, I publish and write for Red Dot Forum. Don't worry, though. We ship to our customers all over the world.

 

Prices have indeed come down for S006. We currently have a CPO S006 for $7,995: http://leicastoremiami.com/collections/used-s-cameras/products/certified-pre-owned-leica-s-typ-12

 

But..... if you can swing it, I'd highly recommend the S007 over the S006. The additional speed, ISO capability, live view functionality, and dynamic range all make for a much more flexible camera. 

 

 

 

Oh cool! Well I have a very particular purpose/reason for the S (006 or 007)... and rather fast! Although I can use the SL for this job, I have a feeling that using the S will give me a tad more flexibility in what I want to shoot and how.

 

I get that speed, I was playing around with it here at Leica LA a few times and it's great - much faster buffer than the SL, somehow.

 

A little background... I have used the S006 many, many times and it was great. A lot of my images are monochrome with flash or Profoto B-series lights, so the higher ISO tolerance doesn't really matter to me right now. Plus, I'm hoping, in getting into the S system "early" (or late for some people) I can get used to the format before Leica comes out with a mirrorless option.

[bilbrown]

So, my friend, what would either S iteration do for you and your work that you can not now accomplish with the two very capable cameras you currently own? Until you can answer that question, the differences between the 006 and 007 are irrelevant.

 

 

 

I have a client that wants me to use Leica, only for some projects.

 

I have literally everything else that matters to this project: M4, M7, M8, M9M, M240, SL, M & R lenses, SL lenses.

 

I'm just really used to shooting Medium format and my FF options, typically during the same project. However, I don't have an S to do this.

 

I *can* use the SL for it, but I want that extra DR of a MF *type* sensor.

 

... but to be honest, I don't know how comparable or how much better the images are...

 

 

My SL comes pretty damn close to the Sony sensor in the 645Z, that is at twice the resolution. Could it be that much better with the S and S lenses?

[Manoleica]

I have a client that wants me to use Leica, only for some projects.

 

I have literally everything else that matters to this project: M4, M7, M8, M9M, M240, SL, M & R lenses, SL lenses.

 

I'm just really used to shooting Medium format and my FF options, typically during the same project. However, I don't have an S to do this.

 

I *can* use the SL for it, but I want that extra DR of a MF *type* sensor.

 

... but to be honest, I don't know how comparable or how much better the images are...

 

Why not Rent an S007?

 

 

My SL comes pretty damn close to the Sony sensor in the 645Z, that is at twice the resolution. Could it be that much better with the S and S lenses?

[bilbrown]

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I have an SL, Pentax 645Z and an S2. I got the S2 and a few lenses to shoot alongside my SL when shooting weddings and commercial portraits. Occasionally I go through the same process, thinking about upgrading to a type 007 and selling the Pentax gear. Here are my thoughts.

 

1. The Pentax does some things really well that the S system doesn't. No compulsory long exposure noise reduction. Super long exposure times. The S maxes out at 125 seconds (2 minutes plus a bit). I've shott 22 minute exposures on the Pentax. The Pentax has a flip screen which is super useful. The DA lenses forcus faster than the S. FA lenses are about the same, but faster than my S2. There's a huge range of good lenses available cheap on the used market. The Pentax has more resolution and more dynamic range and lower contrast. The 28-45 is sensational and has IS. That and the 45-85 are nearly a two lens landscape kit. I do wish Pentax/Ricoh would finally announce the release of the new DA45-85 and 80-160 they've had on their roadmap for two years. That'd make a world of difference.

 

2. The S lenses are better, especially wide open. The new DA lenses are very close but the FA lenses never quite catch the S lenses. I've had one lens fixed only. It's a pain but free for life. Rumors are a new part will be soon available and repaired lenses won't fail again. There are leaf shutter lenses for the S but not for the Pentax. You can use S lenses on the SL but the AF is slow.

 

3. I prefer the layout on the S, although my S2 isn't as nice as the 007. You'll feel familiar with the S straight away.

 

Personally, if I were shooting landscapes I'd keep the Pentax. If I were shooting studio or people I'd get the Leica. If Leica got rid of the compulsory LENR and 125 second limit then the Leica would be a far more competitive landscape camera. Likewise the lack of LS lenses for the Pentax makes the Leica a better option for working with lights.

 

Gordon

 

 

 

Yeah, every S lens I've used just about blows any other lens I have ever used away...

 

And yep, I need something to go along side the SL and the M240 (as well as the CCD Monochrom, and M8 that I use for look/quality)

So *technically* I could get away with the S006 for awhile at least... if it doesn't piss me off with being slow. I don't remember it being slow though...

[bilbrown]

The S typ006 came WAY down on the used market.... IMO, too many photographers chase the latest and greatest when what they should really be pursuing is using what they have and perfecting their technique.

 

 

 

I share the same opinion, which is one of the reasons I switched *mostly* to Leica. I still use the 10 year old M8 quite frequently, and recently picked up the original CCD Monochrom.

 

 

With the S, I am looking for possible resale value if an S mirrorless comes out. But then, I don't know. I would be torn to sell something that gave me good results, no matter the age.

[bilbrown]

Unfortunately the Hong Kong agent (Schmidt) charges about USD $125 per item (not per shipment), more if the item is not registered. I've asked Leica Germany for UPS labels, but they said they couldn't provide these due to tax reasons. 

 

I am now (sort of) back in the US. Maybe New Jersey will help.

 

My S007's problem is really just the detached (40% at this point) rubber armor, so I'd rather not mail it in and wait months.

 

My S45 is now broken. My S100 doesn't focus properly (after AF repair). If Leica were to tell me today that the permanent fix to the AF problem was available, I'd just make a trip to Germany with everything and spend a week there. It might end up being cheaper, and definitely more enjoyable.

 

 

 

Was your lens problems just from normal use... sounds like this was after vey heavy usage!

[bilbrown]

Jeff is correct

Lugging the S around all day with more than one lens is a pain in the arse...........for me i'm the kind of drive to a location take a picture and drive to the next location....everyone to there own.

At the end of the day for me its not only the amazing files that the S007 gives you but the experience of shooting it.......Kind of like shooting a Hasselblad 500 series camera, once you've don it you want to keep doing it :)

 

 

 

Yeah, I would mostly shoot it in studio, or close to home. But then I like the size because it's not TOO big to take out on the street.

 

I either want the basic 70 non CS or a zoom to start off with and likely do that for a year. So I'm not really going to switch around much.

 

The S007 was very responsive and solid when I used it at the Leica Store LA. I didn't get a chance to really test it's limits.

[bilbrown]

 

I have a client that wants me to use Leica, only for some projects.

++++++++++++++++++++

Why not Rent an S007?

 

 

 

 

I likely will, to see how I like it, but it's kind of an ongoing project and I know I will use it as my primary MF if I do end up purchasing it. The 645Z is cool, but in a lot of ways it's complexity of menus and DSLR-type button arrangement is rather useless to me.

[bilbrown]

Exactly 

 

 

But if I get this now and the S gets updated to a mirrorless S, with SL like attributes, I don't want to be stuck with a camera that has depreciated as quickly as the S-series seem to depreciate. The S007 body was 22k when it came out, it's 16k now, the S006 is between 5-9K on the used market (I've found it as low as $4,665 at a reputable dealer, with a Leica Store attached...)

 

It's like buying a Sony for 3K and in 6 months to a year the same camera is $900 new... feel me. Not cool.

 

 

 

To me, that particular type of depreciation does not give the purchase enough clout to give me a lot of piece of mind.

 

 

I lean towards the S006/ Because for about 8-9K getting a camera body and lens in a system that is a little older to really put the ergonomics etc through their paces before I hit a 20K system makes a bit more sense in a professional setting where I am the primary person using it, budgeting, and doing basically everything else. And I typically don't go above ISO400 or ISO800, stay at f8-f22. The extra CMOS DR, or even Live View is kind of irrelevant with that big optical viewfinder and whatnot.

 

But then... I do like the updated shooting speed and other tech of the S007 (just like I preferred the SL and M240 over the M9 in professional use, but still love the image quality on even my M8...)

[Manoleica]

But if I get this now and the S gets updated to a mirrorless S, with SL like attributes, I don't want to be stuck with a camera that has depreciated as quickly as the S-series seem to depreciate. The S007 body was 22k when it came out, it's 16k now, the S006 is between 5-9K on the used market (I've found it as low as $4,665 at a reputable dealer, with a Leica Store attached...)

 

It's like buying a Sony for 3K and in 6 months to a year the same camera is $900 new... feel me. Not cool.

 

 

 

To me, that particular type of depreciation does not give the purchase enough clout to give me a lot of piece of mind.

 

To be honest, all this tooing & frowning is crazy! As a professional go buy the 007 and be done with it.. Depreciation is what your accountant deals with, you obviously want/need the Superior Image of the S007.. Take the plunge...L

 

 

I lean towards the S006/ Because for about 8-9K getting a camera body and lens in a system that is a little older to really put the ergonomics etc through their paces before I hit a 20K system makes a bit more sense in a professional setting where I am the primary person using it, budgeting, and doing basically everything else. And I typically don't go above ISO400 or ISO800, stay at f8-f22. The extra CMOS DR, or even Live View is kind of irrelevant with that big optical viewfinder and whatnot.

 

But then... I do like the updated shooting speed and other tech of the S007 (just like I preferred the SL and M240 over the M9 in professional use, but still love the image quality on even my M8...)

[Jeff S]

 

But if I get this now and the S gets updated to a mirrorless S, with SL like attributes, I don't want to be stuck with a camera that has depreciated as quickly as the S-series seem to depreciate. The S007 body was 22k when it came out, it's 16k now, the S006 is between 5-9K on the used market (I've found it as low as $4,665 at a reputable dealer, with a Leica Store attached...)

 

It's like buying a Sony for 3K and in 6 months to a year the same camera is $900 new... feel me. Not cool.

 

 

 

To me, that particular type of depreciation does not give the purchase enough clout to give me a lot of piece of mind.

 

To be honest, all this tooing & frowning is crazy! As a professional go buy the 007 and be done with it.. Depreciation is what your accountant deals with, you obviously want/need the Superior Image of the S007.. Take the plunge...L

 

 

I lean towards the S006/ Because for about 8-9K getting a camera body and lens in a system that is a little older to really put the ergonomics etc through their paces before I hit a 20K system makes a bit more sense in a professional setting where I am the primary person using it, budgeting, and doing basically everything else. And I typically don't go above ISO400 or ISO800, stay at f8-f22. The extra CMOS DR, or even Live View is kind of irrelevant with that big optical viewfinder and whatnot.

 

But then... I do like the updated shooting speed and other tech of the S007 (just like I preferred the SL and M240 over the M9 in professional use, but still love the image quality on even my M8...)

 

 

 

 

Manoleica, I'm sure your comments are worthy, but for me they are extremely difficult to follow without scanning every line of the quoted material to differentiate your comments.

 

No offense or policing intended....just would like to more easily understand what you have to say. 

 

I suggest that you either distinguish your comments in bold or color, or better yet, make your comment outside the quote box...as I'm doing here.... either in total, by excerpting lines, or using MultiQuote.

 

Jeff

[dfarkas]

But if I get this now and the S gets updated to a mirrorless S, with SL like attributes, I don't want to be stuck with a camera that has depreciated as quickly as the S-series seem to depreciate. The S007 body was 22k when it came out, it's 16k now, the S006 is between 5-9K on the used market (I've found it as low as $4,665 at a reputable dealer, with a Leica Store attached...)

 

It's like buying a Sony for 3K and in 6 months to a year the same camera is $900 new... feel me. Not cool.

 

 

 

To me, that particular type of depreciation does not give the purchase enough clout to give me a lot of piece of mind.

 

 

I lean towards the S006/ Because for about 8-9K getting a camera body and lens in a system that is a little older to really put the ergonomics etc through their paces before I hit a 20K system makes a bit more sense in a professional setting where I am the primary person using it, budgeting, and doing basically everything else. And I typically don't go above ISO400 or ISO800, stay at f8-f22. The extra CMOS DR, or even Live View is kind of irrelevant with that big optical viewfinder and whatnot.

 

But then... I do like the updated shooting speed and other tech of the S007 (just like I preferred the SL and M240 over the M9 in professional use, but still love the image quality on even my M8...)

 

The S2 was $22K. The S007 has always been priced at $16,900. By lowering the price of the new S007 at launch, the values of used S2 and S006 were pushed downward, especially when combined with a special purchase program for the S006 just before the S007 started shipping. 

 

Also, just some friendly advice: do not shoot Leica digitals at f/16-22. For 6 micron sensors (like the M24, S and SL), diffraction becomes a factor at around f/11. At f/16 you'll see noticeably softer results than at f/11. 

[Deliberate1]

 

 

Also, just some friendly advice: do not shoot Leica digitals at f/16-22. For 6 micron sensors (like the M24, S and SL), diffraction becomes a factor at around f/11. At f/16 you'll see noticeably softer results than at f/11. 

David, that is very good information to have. Would it apply across the board to all lenses, no matter the focal length or f-stop range of a lens?

BTW, bought my M9, then certified S 006/C adapter from you folks (Josh). I have enjoyed doing business with you.

David

[albertknappmd]

My take on the original question, get the 007 and keep the SL as a backup..

Albert     

[bilbrown]

My take on the original question, get the 007 and keep the SL as a backup..

Albert     

 

 

To both the M and S, yeah.

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[bilbrown]

David, that is very good information to have. Would it apply across the board to all lenses, no matter the focal length or f-stop range of a lens?

BTW, bought my M9, then certified S 006/C adapter from you folks (Josh). I have enjoyed doing business with you.

David

 

 

 

The S2 was $22K. The S007 has always been priced at $16,900. By lowering the price of the new S007 at launch, the values of used S2 and S006 were pushed downward, especially when combined with a special purchase program for the S006 just before the S007 started shipping. 

 

Also, just some friendly advice: do not shoot Leica digitals at f/16-22. For 6 micron sensors (like the M24, S and SL), diffraction becomes a factor at around f/11. At f/16 you'll see noticeably softer results than at f/11. 

 

 

 

I remember that program, and I almost got an S006 then.

 

Wow, well Bruce Gilden told me he shoots the S006 a f22 in the face, f16 head and shoulders, f11 2/3 and f8 full body for portraits.

 

I will try f11, I have seen a difference on the M240 when I open it up. On the CCD Ms I like the look, although anyone retouching it does not. 

You may have explained why. I haven't noticed the softer results but I will look. For my work it may not matter too much.

 

I wonder what Ellen Von Unwerth did in her recently published shoot for S magazine? Many of my friends were there/shot by her.

But I don't even know if she is a very technical photographer (I highly doubt it, or she has someone set it for her).

 

 

 

I shoot fashion and portraits mostly. Could that be the difference, I mean I am not particularly going for the highest sharpness or clarity, or is it really just the 6 Micron sensors...

 

Do you have a link to explain this?

[Jeff S]

The original post seemed to boil down to selecting the S in lieu of the Pentax 645Z, which you already own along with M and SL systems.  You've tried the 006, and could easily try the 007.

 

If so, you could make an easy list of pros/cons and weigh them against your needs and preferences, which may well be different than those of others.  

 

This needn't be an abstract discussion.  Try and see.

 

Jeff