Guest Posted March 9, 2016 Share #21 Posted March 9, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, I just wonder: Is this dealer in the states ? Here in Europe we are still waiting for the cameras (typically since several months). And regarding early adopters: Most of the buyers had already M and/or R lenses, some also T cameras. So are they early adopters ? I would not call it so. (not in the very strict sense). I have in the last 30 years spent a multiple of the SL price for lenses (mainly) and cameras from Leica. So this is for me just a "completion" of a long-time unfinished project. I have the impression that there are very few buyers who got the SL as their first Leica camera. At least I do not know of anybody, do you ? Stephan Yes I do know someone, Me. Clearly stupid enough to think that my £8200 would buy a stellar camera/lens combo. How wrong I was... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 Hi Guest, Take a look here Is the SL a succes ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
steppenw0lf Posted March 9, 2016 Share #22 Posted March 9, 2016 Hi, sorry to hear that you feel currently bad, but you probably have no reason to do so. I have several cameras and systems (Canon, Nikon, even a bit Sony, and Leica) I am quite hard-nosed, so I have no "stellar camera", and I have never expected to find one. I do not know what you are looking for in photography, so I do not know what is missing, now. I'd just like to let you know, that the SL is my preferred camera for many topics and that I would never sell it (unless when starving, probably.) But I did not choose it because of marketing, but because of my own queer specialist "needs". So I think actually you have now a good (even perfect) starting point. I would have been thrilled to bits if I had had this camera as a first camera (30 years ago). Stephan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 9, 2016 Share #23 Posted March 9, 2016 And regarding early adopters: Most of the buyers had already M and/or R lenses, some also T cameras. So are they early adopters ? I would not call it so. (not in the very strict sense). I have in the last 30 years spent a multiple of the SL price for lenses (mainly) and cameras from Leica. So this is for me just a "completion" of a long-time unfinished project. I have the impression that there are very few buyers who got the SL as their first Leica camera. At least I do not know of anybody, do you ? Stephan If they buy the SL early on, then of course they are early adopters of the SL. I've used M's for over 30 years, and R's as well, but that has nothing to do with buying a new camera model, or even a new lens, early in its product cycle.....even the super expensive 50 APO Summicron had bugs to work out. Not all products, even from the same manufacturer, are created equally.....too many variables....especially given changes over many years. Same with lots of other complex products for me.....cars, computers, etc. YMMV. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted March 9, 2016 Share #24 Posted March 9, 2016 I manage to be first in line placing my order with my local store and had the first one they received for almost three weeks. Early adopter ... yes, but there were no surprises for me. I expected a few rough edges in the firmware, have actually been surprised at how well it works. I find it a stellar camera: It matches what I've been hoping for very well. * However, I certainly would not have recommended an SL as a first Leica purchase to a new user, if anyone asked me. It's a brand new camera of a different type than anything Leica has built before. Knowing the Leica memes as well as I do, I felt comfortable with what it might be, but that wouldn't be true for a newcomer to Leica equipment. * That's not to say there are no areas where it could use some more development ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 9, 2016 Share #25 Posted March 9, 2016 Hi Jeff S, maybe I am just used to it. I am always either buying at the beginning or rather not at all. Some technical products really go down in price after 2 to 3 years. But most of them are simply replaced by the next generation after 6 months or a year. But the products are often just marginally improving, so I never really felt to take a special risk and be a brave early adopter. Maybe the SL is different and I am now actually one of the pioneers. (Go west, young man!) The Leicas never go down in price (4. law of thermodynamics), so I will probably always either buy at the beginning, or not. Stephan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 9, 2016 Share #26 Posted March 9, 2016 And I like folks The Leicas never go down in price (4. law of thermodynamics), so I will probably always either buy at the beginning, or not. Not true....one can pick up a earlier version of the S, new from dealer, for about half of what it sold for not long ago. And in the US, many Leica products have been discounted for many months now (12% on the M)....and that's before any negotiations. No worries...I like early adopters....they're testers for folks like me (although I don't have GAS, so I buy very infrequently.) No rush. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 9, 2016 Share #27 Posted March 9, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jeff, I don't know why, but the situation in the states seems to be different than in Europe. Or maybe things have just different names. Some products are here also reduced by 12%, but this reduction is called "Währungsrabatt" (foreign currency discount), because at the beginning of last year there was a sudden shift in the exchange rates between Euro and Swiss Franc. The discount rates are suspiciously similar, though. No wonder, the exchange rates from euro to the dollar have probably changed at the same time. I do not regard this as a price reduction, because the official prices are still the same. And the next increase will start at these numbers, not at the (temporarily) reduced numbers. Stephan I have seen the reduced prices for the older S, but again this is just a stock clearance action, not an ordinary price reduction. Look for example if you ever find that the batteries or accumulators can be found at reduced prices. I often tried, but never succeeded. (Besides this foreign currency discount). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 10, 2016 Share #28 Posted March 10, 2016 Jeff, I don't know why, but the situation in the states seems to be different than in Europe. Or maybe things have just different names. Some products are here also reduced by 12%, but this reduction is called "Währungsrabatt" (foreign currency discount), because at the beginning of last year there was a sudden shift in the exchange rates between Euro and Swiss Franc. The discount rates are suspiciously similar, though. No wonder, the exchange rates from euro to the dollar have probably changed at the same time. I do not regard this as a price reduction, because the official prices are still the same. And the next increase will start at these numbers, not at the (temporarily) reduced numbers. Stephan I have seen the reduced prices for the older S, but again this is just a stock clearance action, not an ordinary price reduction. Look for example if you ever find that the batteries or accumulators can be found at reduced prices. I often tried, but never succeeded. (Besides this foreign currency discount). Who cares why it costs less?....I've learned over time that it often will, for many reasons...and more importantly for me, the bugs will generally be sorted as well. The recurring reductions since last year have been officially sanctioned by Leica. If I bought a new M or S at release, I would have paid more than if I waited. Period. And for the S, a lot, lot less.....that S 'clearance' you mention has been going on for many months, at multiple dealers. Your multiple comments that Leica prices never go down is wrong....as has been shown time and again for various reasons....especially at the end of product cycles. For example, how about $1500 off on the M9 back in 2012... http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/09/13/further-price-slash-on-leica-m9-and-m9-p-up-to-1500-off/ Just one example. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 10, 2016 Share #29 Posted March 10, 2016 Jeff, this is fruitless: Everybody has his own experiences. Yours are that Leica prices go down. Mine are that they never go down. (since 30 years) Do you have a problem with this ? I think so, but then take you tablets and take some pictures ... Stephan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 10, 2016 Share #30 Posted March 10, 2016 So when you say 'never', that excludes experiences of everyone else, and actual Leica practices.....as evidenced by dealer ads. Now I get it. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 10, 2016 Share #31 Posted March 10, 2016 Please take your tablets and do not tell me what I am telling. Again, this is fruitless ... OK, I try to be fair: If the dollar or the pound is getting very strong, it is possible that the prices in theses countries seem to be going down. But I am quite close to the country of production and I compare the "native" prices in Euro - and before that in D-Mark. And in these pricelists unfortunately I never noticed a price reduction. And because I buy Leica stuff from time to time since more than 30 years I never found a general price reduction since 30 years. Of course it is possible to find a second hand item (especially the ones not in such high esteem or demand) at any price. This has nothing to do with official prices. Now I go out with my SL, and stop this nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. van Asch Posted March 10, 2016 Share #32 Posted March 10, 2016 45 years ago I bought Canon binoculars in Japan. After 6 months I sold them because they were terrible! I bought Swarovski binoculars and it is still perfect but not 2016. When I bought my Leica SL they were selling binoculars as well and Swarovski and Leica are still the best. My first camera was a Canon and after having saved enough money I bought my first M. Now I also have an M6TTL and a M8 (2008). Last year the M8 got a new firmware as well so Leica is supporting there customers perfectly. It is a bit like buying a watch you start with a cheap one and if you have the money you'll buy something perfect and beautiful. That's why you have to keep it simple. Buying something expensive is like buying something you love, Gerjan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted March 10, 2016 Share #33 Posted March 10, 2016 I never pay list price, period. You can just demand a discount, or you won't buy. Again I've never paid list price and bought plenty brand new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 10, 2016 Share #34 Posted March 10, 2016 I think the SL is a success. I'm enjoying mine very much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 10, 2016 Share #35 Posted March 10, 2016 Please take your tablets and do not tell me what I am telling. Again, this is fruitless ... OK, I try to be fair: If the dollar or the pound is getting very strong, it is possible that the prices in theses countries seem to be going down. But I am quite close to the country of production and I compare the "native" prices in Euro - and before that in D-Mark. And in these pricelists unfortunately I never noticed a price reduction. And because I buy Leica stuff from time to time since more than 30 years I never found a general price reduction since 30 years. Of course it is possible to find a second hand item (especially the ones not in such high esteem or demand) at any price. This has nothing to do with official prices. Now I go out with my SL, and stop this nonsense. You didn't follow my links....official Leica discounts for $1500 on brand new Leica M9s, with full warranty, in 2012....official Leica discounts in US right now for various Leica products, including camera and lenses....and I could link to various others. Just because you never found a price reduction doesn't negate these well advertised, Leica sanctioned, reductions. I gave you the link. BTW, this doesn't even cover the increased willingness official Leica dealers have to 'unofficially' further discount new items, especially late in the product cycle. At time of release, this is harder to do, but not impossible (as reported by some members posting even on this thread). But I guess you never tried that approach, so it really doesn't exist. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Lowe Posted March 10, 2016 Share #36 Posted March 10, 2016 And also, according to the dealer who has 4 SLs in stock (as of yesterday), a good number of people are waiting to see what the new M will offer before making their choice. This gave me another opportunity to moan about Leica's lack of openness with their customers about their products. I am getting increasingly tired of Leica's attitude. The price at which we buy into this premium line of products deserves, I think, I more honest and less cloak-and-dagger, "isn't it fun to be teased" approach that might enable us to plan more sensibly what our next purchases might be. I'm curious - can you give me an example of a company that is doing what you want in terms of being open about unannounced products? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgktkr Posted March 10, 2016 Share #37 Posted March 10, 2016 You're aware of the Osborne Effect, aren't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect dgktkr And also, according to the dealer who has 4 SLs in stock (as of yesterday), a good number of people are waiting to see what the new M will offer before making their choice. This gave me another opportunity to moan about Leica's lack of openness with their customers about their products. I am getting increasingly tired of Leica's attitude. The price at which we buy into this premium line of products deserves, I think, I more honest and less cloak-and-dagger, "isn't it fun to be teased" approach that might enable us to plan more sensibly what our next purchases might be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 10, 2016 Share #38 Posted March 10, 2016 I'm curious - can you give me an example of a company that is doing what you want in terms of being open about unannounced products? Fuji often does a nice job offering roadmaps, especially on their lens lineup... http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/ Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 10, 2016 Share #39 Posted March 10, 2016 Every Leica announcement is a transparent and open roadmap of where they're going - it takes them months to deliver what they've released, and often at the release, they only have a mock-up for people to play with (remember the glued up SD slots on the release of the M(240)?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted March 10, 2016 Share #40 Posted March 10, 2016 Jeff, unfortunately you still have not understood, I wonder if you ever will or want. I buy here where I live, and here the prices have never been down. (since 30 years) I could not buy from the states, because then I would have to pay extra tax and this would make the prices even higher. It would only be cheaper if I switched to US and never went home again. But as soon as I cross the border with new equipment I have to pay extra duty and tax. So as said already, experiences are different for different people or places, because they pay in different currencies. Everybody should be able to understand that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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