Rolo Posted June 3, 2007 Share #21 Posted June 3, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks for the detailed response Rolo - and some really impressive landscapes on the Photo Forum.Anyone have any good ideas? (before i go off searching for myself, that is) Thanks. I have three digital spot meters: One Pentax 1 deg spot and a Zone VI grey scale attached. The gey scale makes an improvised Zone system a piece of pea ! I'll post an image if you don't understand. Two Sekonic meters which are excellent, but slightly more complicated than the above for the Zone system. Mid-grey is limited for B&W, you need to identify the zone (tone) where you just want detail and the zone of the brightest reading (brightest of the subject you are emphasing). Then place and push and pull to suit. I'll provide more info if you wish. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Hi Rolo, Take a look here b&w film with best tonality?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
imported_peter_m Posted June 4, 2007 Share #22 Posted June 4, 2007 How did I miss this one ..... Interesting topic, I just shot a few rolls of apx 100, waiting for the incidents for the soup to arrive. Rolo, Thank you for the informative post. If you have more information to share I am all ears..... or would that be eyes Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 4, 2007 Share #23 Posted June 4, 2007 .I've always been an admirer of Ansel Adams, and tend to use a primitive version of the zone system by metering areas of a scene that i feel are mid-gray - but i've already seen the limitations that a wider metering involve: somewhere i saw a good recommendation for a spot-meter (was it on Marc Anthony's blog?), and i've been thinking that this might help when the subject demands more careful assessment. Anyone have any good ideas? (before i go off searching for myself, that is) If it was on my blog it was a Minolta Spotmeter F. Most 100 ISO films are capable of great tonal range, and everyone will have their favourite but remember developer choice, agitation, developer time etc can all influence results. My personal favourite is Agfa APX 100 developed in Rodinal 1;50 or 1:100. If thats hard to get try Fomapan 100 'classic' also in Rodinal 1:50 like below: Don't forget Fuji Acros which in Rodinal 1:100 for 18 mins can be stunning both in tone/sharpness also: Also Adox 100 can be very nice with the right dev time/agitation Adox 25 is a little harder to tame contrast wise as is the newest version of Kodak Plus-X I'm sure that if you've seen my blog: http://photo-utopia.blogspot.com/ You must have noticed that I'm testing most currently available B&W films. Have fun!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share #24 Posted June 4, 2007 If it was on my blog it was a Minolta Spotmeter F. Thanks! - think that's the one i had in mind! If thats hard to get try Fomapan 100 'classic' also in Rodinal 1:50 like below Love that shot! You must have noticed that I'm testing most currently available B&W films. I certainly have! I'm constantly back there re-checking your tests. My only very mild criticism (if you can call it that), is that the blog format can make it difficult to get all the information you want in an organized way: by this i mean that, although you can click on the 'FILM' tag on a post and get the films together, i felt it would be great if the film information was gathered in some sort of 'overview' - grainy/not-grainy, fast/slow etc. Haha - sorry to be a pita: not complaining about the great service you're supplying to everyone (free of charge). ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 4, 2007 Share #25 Posted June 4, 2007 I certainly have! I'm constantly back there re-checking your tests. My only very mild criticism (if you can call it that), is that the blog format can make it difficult to get all the information you want in an organized way: by this i mean that, although you can click on the 'FILM' tag on a post and get the films together, i felt it would be great if the film information was gathered in some sort of 'overview' - grainy/not-grainy, fast/slow etc. Haha - sorry to be a pita: not complaining about the great service you're supplying to everyone (free of charge). ;-) I am working on that, if you look in the sidebar you'll see 'search this blog' powered by Technorati. This works on the tags I put in posts, and I'm tagging my content right now. Also I'm having to put © symbols on my posts and some images–sorry. This Week-end I had my entire blog stolen and re-posted, not that i mind that much as if information is accessible to more people I'm happy, I'd just like my name at the bottom as a courtesy. Mark Thanks for looking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share #26 Posted June 4, 2007 Wow what a crazy phenomenon: blog-stealing! I'm sorry to hear it. As a matter of interest, what benefit did the thief hope to get from that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 4, 2007 Share #27 Posted June 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Its OK, I didn't mind I mailed him asking for a credit, but I don't mind people using images and text as long as they credit me. As for gains his site was full of Adverts, I guess he was using my content for his adverts/revenue. I have just checked and the page is down, so he might have removed my content, but I honestly don't mind– it's just cheeky. I certainly wouldn't take any action other than asking for credit. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share #28 Posted June 4, 2007 Hmmm, i didn't think of the advertising angle (strangely enough). Was kinda assuming that it was just 'cred' that he was stealing. Just seemed so strange - sort of like stealing someone's diary and claiming it as your own. Anyways, glad to hear that you've sorted it out (this time at least), and that you're so relaxed about it. A great resource - as many have commented here and elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted June 4, 2007 Share #29 Posted June 4, 2007 How did I miss this one ..... Thank you for the informative post. If you have more information to share I am all ears..... or would that be eyes Peter The simplest and most fundemental thing you can do to improve your B&W work is to set your exposure to secure Zone III (detailed shadow info). That will give you 80% of what's available and provide you with an excellent neg in normal conditions and a good enough neg in almost all other conditions. Zone III is the Zone where you can clearly see full information, not barely see it, but easily see it. Zone II is barely see it. For reference, think of a shot of a motor vehicle taken from the shadow side. The tyre tread has the grooves in and in the shadow of the car wing you still see and want to show that tread, you do not want a solid black tyre without the tread detail. That is your Zone III. A spot meter just makes life easier so that you don't need to walk over to the trye to measure it. When you meter that tyre tread with a camera meter, the meter will give you the right exposure reading for a Zone V (mid grey) and so you need to close down (less light) by two stops to fix that at Zone III. Do that and you'll never take a bad exposure again and your scanned images will be terrific.. The tricky bit is visualising that source of that same shadow detail in every picture you take - but if you seek and find the Zone III your exposiure will have the right degree of detail in the clearer parts of the neg. The good news is that, the shadow detail is pretty insensitive to development, say 25% as sensitive as the dark highlight areas, and whatever happens with dev times has little impact on that end of the scale. That's the opposite to the highlight end where increasing dev times blocks the highlights up, but that isn't as big an issue as insufficient shadow detail 'cos you can never get that back. So, fix Zone III and be happy. It quickly becomes second nature in practice. Exposing for the highlights and push/pull processing is a bit more complicated, but we can get into that if needed. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share #30 Posted June 4, 2007 Exposing for the highlights and push/pull processing is a bit more complicated, but we can get into that if needed. We're all ears! :-) (if you have the time). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 4, 2007 Share #31 Posted June 4, 2007 Rolo "So, fix Zone III and be happy" That is great advice, use a spotmeter, choose the shadow area that needs to have detail, close down 2 stops. The key to good ballpark exposure Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share #32 Posted June 4, 2007 Here are some resources that also illustrate the concepts in what i thought was a quite straightforward way: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/zone_system.shtml http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srpzone.html and of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system Google throws up a few thousand more, for in-depth study... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted June 4, 2007 Share #33 Posted June 4, 2007 Fix Zone III and be Happy. Here's a pic of my Pentax digital 1deg Spot Meter. However, I repeat that a spot meter is not necessary, jut easier to measure a tiny area without having to move. Fixing Zone III also works just as well with colour and digital cameras. On my meter, you can see the EV dial which is set by matching the reading through meter viewfinder and the Zone VI greyscale that has been attached to this meter for nearly 15 years. So, I measure the tyre tread (above) which gives a reading of 7 and I adjust the EV dial so 7 lines up with grey Zone III. Saving the need to close 2 stops and graphically illustrating where the zones are. With 7 on Zone III, all the other zones are illustrated from Zone I to Zone VIII. In a 'normal scene, that'll do nicely and all that's necessary is to select a Time and F stop combination to suit the depth of field or subject movement .... Rolo Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/25516-bw-film-with-best-tonality/?do=findComment&comment=273086'>More sharing options...
Xavier Ray Posted June 4, 2007 Share #34 Posted June 4, 2007 Delta 100 / Ilford HC dev. or Kodak HC110 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted June 5, 2007 Share #35 Posted June 5, 2007 Rolo, Thank you so much for the interesting tips, very helpful and much appreciated. Mani, some good links there, defiantly have to do some reading up on this. Let me just see if I understand that. Since the meter just sees everything as neutral grey ( poor meter... .... wonder if it gets bored seeing the world as grey and always the shame shade) You meter the tire and want it as zone III the meter gives you the value for a zone V. Since the black rubber won't reflect as much light you compensate by + 2 stops to get the right exposure for the zone III. I just have to tattoo this on my forehead....better jet engrave it on the back of the camera so I won't forget Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 5, 2007 Share #36 Posted June 5, 2007 You meter the tire and want it as zone III the meter gives you the value for a zone V. Since the black rubber won't reflect as much light you compensate by + 2 stops to get the right exposure for the zone III. Not quite you meter the shadow, which should be on zone III but your meter sees zone V. So your reading is inflated, so you need to close down 2 stops that's -2 not +2. So if your tyre is 1/60 f4 you need to set the camera to 1/60 F8 to ensure the shadow is pegged at zone III Hope I haven't confused things Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted June 5, 2007 Share #37 Posted June 5, 2007 I just have to tattoo this on my forehead....better jet engrave it on the back of the camera so I won't forget Peter Peter, hope you haven't had any surgery yet. It's 2 stops less !, not more. The meter sees the tire (US spelling) as mid grey, therefore it will 'raise' the reading for the amount of of light it needs to make that black tread into a mid grey. Looking at the meter photo above - the mid-grey reading for the tire is 7 from the meter viewfinder. But we know it's not mid-grey, it's tire tread black with detail. Therefore the 7 on the meter dial needs to be set against Zone III, as shown. Looking at the photo and visualising the number 7 at the mid-grey Zone V setting and then rotating it to the III position reduces the light setting for the camera by two stops. It's vital you get this right as opening it up 2 stops moves a Zone III subject to a Zone VII which is white and if you do that you've lost the photo. That's why that small grey scale sticker is so valuable in fixing the concept in your mind. Take a tire reading stick it on Zone III - it's that simple. When you've got that sorted, I'll move on to the rest of the scale. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_peter_m Posted June 6, 2007 Share #38 Posted June 6, 2007 Hello Rolo and Mark, Thank you for straitening me out there, I always get that backwards Got it in my mind that + is higher numbers on the dial. Guess that happens if you give a hermit a camera and leave him to figure it out on its own <G> I got it right my way but the terminology backwards to the rest of the world. The correct way to remember this would be - is less light = smaller aperture + is more light = larger aperture Rolo, That zone sticker on your meter can buy them or did you make this one up, be a handy thing to have. Thank you guys Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted June 6, 2007 Share #39 Posted June 6, 2007 my Films are the Fuji Acros, Neopan 400 and 1600...all developed in EMOFIN... I hate to use the lightmeter.. ..so I need a combination with a safty feeling. o.k. I have a lot of praxis to do correct negatives and slides....but with this combination I have my head free of technics to look for... regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted June 6, 2007 Share #40 Posted June 6, 2007 [ Rolo, That zone sticker on your meter can buy them or did you make this one up, be a handy thing to have. Thank you guys Peter Hi, The were sold in the USA by Zone VI. Availalble for several meters at the time. I think it really helps visualise what's going on and it makes this meter very quick to use. I didn't find it easy without the labelling and so I bought two of them at the time and still have the other after all these years. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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