70mm vs the M 50mm Apo

[skimmel]

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So, I made a big mistake this week.  I went to PhotoPlus Expo to look at the new SL. The SL isn't my cup of tea (nice electronic viewfinder but I really like optical much better).

 

But, I also tried out the S007. The feel of the body, the viewfinder, was just incredible.  Could never imagine myself getting into the S system, but now....

 

So, my question relates to lenses and how they draw. 

 

I have the 50mm Apo M lens.  To me, it is the quintessential lens.  In the past 40 years as an avid photographer I have never experience a lens like this.  I simply love the way it draws.

 

How does the 70mm S lens compare to the 50mm M Apo lens? I realize this can be subjective, but would like peoples' subjective take on this.

 

Thanks. 

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[John McMaster]

I have the 50 APO (plus other lenses), plus an S2-P with the 70mm (and other S lenses). The 50 APO leaves other M lenses away, the S (with any lens) is another level....

 

sorry ;-)

 

john

[albireo_double]

I have the M-P 240 and the 50 APO (plus a bunch of other lenses) and an S007 (and still my old S2 as well), with the 70mm, plus other lenses. Yes, the S is perhaps "another level" but the 50 APO on the M240 can be very close, in many situations (especially where the sensor's capabilities are not tested to the limit and where your subject holds still enough for the rangefinder-assisted MF to get you optimal focus). With no mirror to bounce, the M is also easier to handhold at lower shutter speeds, of course, without the need to raise ISO (and yes, you can raise the ISO a lot with the S007 but you will give up some image quality by doing so). The 35 FLE and 75 APO are not "left away" by any major distance, either. I've just spent about five hours today (and more this week) producing a photo book of my kids (as a Christmas present for the grandparents etc). I've been looking at many images taken with both systems, on a calibrated 4K NEC Spectraview monitor. I had been thinking of selling the M-P and keeping just the S for colour  (and an M246 for b&w) but I really do like many of the images taken with the 50 APO on the M-P.

 

Are there any differences in how the lenses draw? My impression is that the 50 APO is superbly detailed, contrasty and produces very highly saturated colours (which is what the CMOS sensor generally needs, with its "flatter" out of camera images, but which I sometimes didn't like so much on the M9 where the CCD sensor produces punchier images). At the limit, in very contrasty light, the 50 APO can be a bit "too much of a good thing". On the other hand, the 70 mm Summarit-S is also very detailed and contrasty but is smoother and works superbly with both the CCD and CMOS sensors of the various S versions. And the same can be said about all of the S lenses. 

[erlingmm]

Touching the S is extremely dangerous ;-) I held off picking up my 007 until I saw what came on the 20th. The SL is probably a fine machine, but like you, I prefer an optical viewfinder, and the S is just beautiful.

 

The S70 is known to be a very fine lens. It is hard to compare the two lenses directly, although they have the same "functional" picture angle, there is still a difference between FF and MF in chip size that influences how they draw.

 

But did you think of how the APO50 would perform on a SL? That is yet to be tested, and I suspect you will lose some of the strength of this lens on the M system: Extreme edge sharpness. Would love to see someone test it, though.

[jip]

I think the 70mm renders extremely natural, so does the 50 APO. but the 50 APO still has a swirl to it's bokeh, which the 70 does not. 

[albertknappmd]

I have both lenses.. The 50 is in a class of its own. The best 35mm lens ever made. PERIOD. The 70mm is an MF stunner and readily holds its own against the 50mm. The 70mm BOKEH is different but equally appealing...

Albert   :)  

[Agent M10]

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Well, great. I was just about to sell off my APO to fund the 007. Now I've got to think twice about that.

[RVB]

Well, great. I was just about to sell off my APO to fund the 007. Now I've got to think twice about that.

You'll love the 007,just find another way to finance it,I would like a 50mm APO ,maybe next year I'll get one,amazing IQ for the seriously low size & weight.

[hoppyman]

I think that it may be a mistake trying to directly compare the characteristics of these two lenses in isolation. That is to say they are part of (different) systems. Dynamic range, default colour rendering, high ISO noise performance, handling and white balance for example  are all (inevitably ) different between the M & S systems.
I guess to directly compare without variables you will just have to get the SL, the two lenses, two adapters and a test bench ;-)

What I can comment on is that I have shot the Summilux 50 ASPH (sorry not the APO 50) on the M (typ 240) and the 70 Summarit on the S (typ 006) informally side by side in high contrast lighting (midday sun). Both are excellent combinations of course. The 70 shots have  phenomenal practical resolution and broader dynamic range  if I look at 100% on my monitor. Whether that matters in practical applications is a different matter. 
I'm saving for the S (typ 007) all of my M system is for sale.

[skimmel]

Thank you everyone for the very helpful insights.  

 

Just for fun, here is a quick shot I took with the 50mm Apo M at PhotoExpo of a very nice gentleman that I met there.

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[RVB]

I think that it may be a mistake trying to directly compare the characteristics of these two lenses in isolation. That is to say they are part of (different) systems. Dynamic range, default colour rendering, high ISO noise performance, handling and white balance for example  are all (inevitably ) different between the M & S systems.

I guess to directly compare without variables you will just have to get the SL, the two lenses, two adapters and a test bench ;-)

 

What I can comment on is that I have shot the Summilux 50 ASPH (sorry not the APO 50) on the M (typ 240) and the 70 Summarit on the S (typ 006) informally side by side in high contrast lighting (midday sun). Both are excellent combinations of course. The 70 shots have  phenomenal practical resolution and broader dynamic range  if I look at 100% on my monitor. Whether that matters in practical applications is a different matter. 

I'm saving for the S (typ 007) all of my M system is for sale.

 

Wonder if we'll see a 50-70 APO for the S,the 70 is excellent but can show some mild CA in high contrast scenes like winter trees against a bright sky! An F2 APO would be sweet!

[Overland]

... the 70 is excellent but can show some mild CA in high contrast scenes like winter trees against a bright sky! ...

 

That's what I've found also. But in this situation, each lens can show some CA. Even Leica 50 mm / 1: 2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH. Is there opposition from owners of this lens? For my taste Leica 70 mm / 1: 2.5 Summarit-S ASPH is a great lens. I love them.

[RVB]

That's what I've found also. But in this situation, each lens can show some CA. Even Leica 50 mm / 1: 2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH. Is there opposition from owners of this lens? For my taste Leica 70 mm / 1: 2.5 Summarit-S ASPH is a great lens. I love them.

 

Its an fabulous lens,no doubt about it and has relatively low weight,it feels perfect on the S. I'm going to try and shoot such a scene with both the 70 & 120 APO to see if they handle the situation differently.

[jip]

The APO should perform better, but APO lenses are better corrected against CA, not totally free from it. Both 50mm APO can get some fringing, and so does the 120 APO.

[BerndReini]

I have no experience with the S-system, but I sold a Phase One P25 back for my Contax system to fund the 50mm Apo. The 50mm Apo wide open draws a lot like a medium format lens stopped down a little. I can tell you that I have not regretted getting away from medium format digital since I bought the 50 Apo. I just use it so much more because of its size. Any camera and lens are worthless if you don't have it on you when a potentially great photograph presents itself.

[RVB]

I have no experience with the S-system, but I sold a Phase One P25 back for my Contax system to fund the 50mm Apo. The 50mm Apo wide open draws a lot like a medium format lens stopped down a little. I can tell you that I have not regretted getting away from medium format digital since I bought the 50 Apo. I just use it so much more because of its size. Any camera and lens are worthless if you don't have it on you when a potentially great photograph presents itself.

If you don't carry it you won't shoot it!! 

[BerndReini]

 

 

If you don't carry it you won't shoot it!! 

Exactly. And every once in a while I get tempted by a camera thinking I would leave my M at home in favor of it. Never happens.

[Printmaker]

Exactly. And every once in a while I get tempted by a camera thinking I would leave my M at home in favor of it. Never happens.

 

 

I am also guilty. I usually just carry my MM or my M9. The S2 spends most of its time in the studio.

 

As to the subject at hand, I do not have a 50 APO but rather a 50 Summicron Type 3 that now is part of my M9 kit because of the wonderful way it renders in color. I also have another 50 Summicron latest version (5) that lives on my Monochrom. I like the crisp and contrasty way it draws in black and white. Both Summicrons render photos that look quite different than photos taken with the 70 Summarit. Of the three normal lenses the 70 Summarit is far and above my favorite.

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[BerndReini]

Try a 50 Apo wide open on your MM at a camera store when you get the chance. You will be amazed how that lens draws at f2.

[menos I M6]

The major difference is not between the 50/2 APO and the 70/2.5 Summarit-S, but in the way a Leica M compares to a Leica S in actual use.

 

 

The Leica M (with any lens) will always be much faster, agile, quicker to set up, acquire focus, easier to conceal and use unobtrusively, less back hurting to use than any S with any lens on it.

 

I get completely different photographs with my S2 and my Leica M cameras. When I had my S2 for the first few months a long time ago, I actually tried (wrongfully) to use it like a M - it is like trying to park a double decker bus in a Tokyo downtown underground parking lot.

 

The S provides simply stunning image quality on several levels which no M at this point can match.

The S has severe limitations forbidding it's use for certain tasks where the Leica M (ANY Leica M) truly shines and excels, providing natural, beautiful photographs.

 

Before comparing certain lenses, make absolutely sure that you really want / need a digital medium format camera in your life (despite it's clever camouflage as a 35mm-ish DSLR, it really is just that: a slow, big, heavy medium format digital system camera).

 

Fortunately second hand prices came down a bit so the hurt isn't that bad when foolishly jumping to buy a Leica S - rent a S (any S) + 70mm and try it for a week extensively.

After that you will know if pros outweigh the cons.

The S lenses are beyond reproach the S camera though will not necessarily deliver the images YOU want it to produce.

 

As a good example: I never go out to shoot pictures with JUST the S2 with me. I always bring a M along (mostly just a Mono + 35/2). Both allow completely different images to be taken.