wattsy Posted October 29, 2015 Share #101 Posted October 29, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's not bring socialistic thinking into the evaluation of a camera in a simple camera forum - ok? Jesus wept, the poster made a simple comment about perceived value and you extrapolate it out as if it were some kind of "goddamn commie pinko" propaganda. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Hi wattsy, Take a look here I'm waiting for the new M and I'm worried.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
A Almulla Posted October 29, 2015 Share #102 Posted October 29, 2015 Leica M-P $7k at BH and Adorama (Well $6,996 for the silly folks) £4k without VAT at Red Dot Cameras (£3,957) Leica SL $7.5k at BH and Adorama (for the silly folks $7,450) £4,200 without VAT at Red Dot Cameras (£4,208) As many have pointed out I can't see a major difference in price. We always paid more for the simplicity of the M and for those who wanted a little more complication can pay a little more for it. If its about the cost of glass, well Leica always had and still has excellent glass and whatever we pay for it its an investment that carries on from one body to the next. I am happy about the specs on the SL as they would trickle down to the next M and my major reason to get the next one would be way way better ISO rendering and hopefully better dynamic range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 29, 2015 Share #103 Posted October 29, 2015 Wrong, i asked for a M update (the external electronic viewfinder and some other things) as soon as i could try the M240. I ended not buying it thinking Leica could not possibly sell it as it is for a long time, than in six months would appear an improved model. To prevent such illusions I have already pointed out elsewhere that Leica doesn’t work that way. When they release a new model they expect it to last 3 years at least. They don’t change their mind after 6 months, and even if they did, it would take one or two years for an improved model to be released as camera development takes its time. Some may prefer those “Oops, this is the camera we really wanted to release in the first place” moments but in that respect, Leica won’t deliver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 29, 2015 Share #104 Posted October 29, 2015 I understand mjh, but now a camera maker cannot act like in the past when a pure 20 years old mechanical camera could make real sense for amateurs and professionals because it could use the latest and best film emulsions and in the talented hands did not bring any limitation on possible quality of images. Now sensors and electronic are the real new limit. If you are not at the top you are indeed limited. In my opinion allowing an up to date evf is not like introducing a new model, it is an incremental upgrade, like say a new firmware, though i now this move would mean changing radically the electronic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 29, 2015 Share #105 Posted October 29, 2015 In my opinion alowing an up to date evf is not like introducing a new model, it is an incremental upgrade, like say a new firmware, though i now this move would mean changing radically the electronic. Indeed a lot if not all of the electronics would have to change to allow for an improved EVF. And that’s the kind of change that you won’t get after just 6 months. Or 1 or 2 years for that matter. It isn’t really a matter of what would be desirable but about what one can realistically expect from Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 29, 2015 Share #106 Posted October 29, 2015 Indeed a lot of not all of the electronics would have to change to allow for an improved EVF. And that’s the kind of change that you won’t get after just 6 months. Or 1 or 2 years for that matter. It isn’t really a matter of what would be desirable but about what one can realistically expect from Leica. I was a Keynesian, thought demand creates offer. Do you want to prove Keynes wrong and austrians right ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 29, 2015 Share #107 Posted October 29, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was a Keynesian, thought demand creates offer. Do you want to prove Keynes wrong and austrians right ? Demand creates a possible market, an incentive for enterprises to meet that demand. But you cannot conjure up products out of thin air just by declaring a demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted October 29, 2015 Share #108 Posted October 29, 2015 hold it, we're not doing sociopolitical economy theories in this forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 29, 2015 Share #109 Posted October 29, 2015 Demand creates a possible market, an incentive for enterprises to meet that demand. But you cannot conjure up products out of thin air just by declaring a demand. This is true if you limit yourself asking only one company. In a global market with many producers (or enough producers to have a competition) chances are that if demand is reasonable (by that i understand within the technology and production cost limits) then if one is not serving the demand another likely will. That said i love Leica, started photography with a Leica and still use them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted October 29, 2015 Share #110 Posted October 29, 2015 Why in the world (yes the one world we live in) would anyone expect Leica to behave as anything other than a company seeking to maximize profits? They price at a point where they think the resultant demand curve will benefit them, not at a point to "benefit" consumers. There's nothing wrong with that. When it comes to pricing, Leica does not behave like the Japanese camera companies, who will price at levels to create mass market demand, keeping big factories humming. Is the SL expensive? Yes, it is. But that s not the question. The question is whether it is too expensive for Leica to make a profit. The answer to that question lies in the hands of Leica customers. They will either buy or not buy in sufficient numbers depending on their assessment of individual finances, need, and perceived value for the money. So far, Leica has shown a good batting average in figuring out how to price. I think they missed on the T, but perhaps they were willing to do that (and IMHO the problem with the T was not the price but other issues). Over the years, they have succeeded on the M series, and apparently on the Q, and whether the SL succeeds remains to be seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 29, 2015 Share #111 Posted October 29, 2015 This is true if you limit yourself asking only one company. It is your prerogative to choose the vendors you are willing to consider. Nobody forces you to buy a Leica if another vendor’s product better meets your needs. That still doesn’t change the fact that when Leica releases a new M, they are effectively saying that that’s the M they believe you should buy, provided it is a new M that you want to buy. And you can trust them to stand by that statement for a couple of years until the product cycle ends and an even newer M is announced. Leica’s not for turning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted October 29, 2015 Share #112 Posted October 29, 2015 Only diffence is and was, that in 1954 people would buy a camera which would last " a lifetime". People were not inclined to buy a new camera every few years. Not even the people who used them for a living would buy a new camera every few years. Interesting thought, but not necessarily so. The introduction of the M3 in 1954 was followed by the introduction of the M2 in 1957. Advertising is what sells new cameras. Advertising drives the demand for the new features, and if there aren't any new features then advertising drives the demand for "new.". If that wasn't the case, what possible reason would there be for anyone to ever buy a new MP or MA over a used M4 or M4-2 or M4-P? The M4-P has all of the features of the M-A and a fine example can be had for about 1/5th cost. And if you already own an earlier M body, whatever would compel you to spend $4k on a new body that does exactly the same thing as the one you already own... if advertising hadn't created a demand for "new?" I read posts here regularly that someone wants a "new" body because they "don't know the history" or "want the MP finder" or whatever... when I can buy an M4-P, have the new finder installed and have the camera completely serviced by DAG or Sherrie or YY and STILL have less than half the cost of a new M-A invested. Or if I already own an M4 or M4-P, I can have that done for less than a quarter of the cost. No, advertising creates a demand for "new" for the sake of "new." That's why manufacturers pour princely sums into it... and people keep falling for it. Buying for need or necessity is one thing... buying for the sake of "new" is quite another. Oh, btw though... you can still expect your $4180 M-A to last your lifetime. Frankly, my 1984 M4-P will last the rest of MY lifetime, as will my 1965-1970 E.Leitz Canada lenses (and my more recent, excellent Voigtlander lenses.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 29, 2015 Share #113 Posted October 29, 2015 Indeed i wish i could buy an upgraded Leica M, if only Leica was offering this choice. I need a good evf and better image, resolution, at base iso, very high iso qualities as it comes, not a priority. Silent, reliable, vibrations free and reasonably responsive. If it could be done in the size of the M9 would be perfect. I don't care about video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 29, 2015 Share #114 Posted October 29, 2015 I knew it, I go to bed and when I wake up and I'm on a political/economic forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 29, 2015 Share #115 Posted October 29, 2015 Oh, when I wrote in my post #95 about everyone would own a Kodak Brownie, what I meant to say is a Sony A7rII. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dupiastko Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share #116 Posted October 29, 2015 Update - after seeing the new SL images on dpreview, I'm REALLY worried about the new M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted October 29, 2015 Share #117 Posted October 29, 2015 I handled the SL at PhotoExpo and came away very very impressed. It will be a winner and given that it takes M lenses as well as S lenses. I have both the MP 240 and the S and can see this as a backup for both systems. It is a brilliant move in my opinion as the EVF is amazing and the mirror less cameras are here to stay. Albert :rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted October 29, 2015 Share #118 Posted October 29, 2015 Furthermore, I wish that I still had my R lenses as an adaptor is also planned for them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted October 29, 2015 Share #119 Posted October 29, 2015 Why in the world (yes the one world we live in) would anyone expect Leica to behave as anything other than a company seeking to maximize profits? it's a good thing no one does that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 29, 2015 Share #120 Posted October 29, 2015 Update - after seeing the new SL images on dpreview, I'm REALLY worried about the new M Are you? If if you want to see how the SL takes pictures, in detail, with the new zoom, head over to Reid Reviews. Detailed, competent testing. There's also detailed comparison of the new cameras to the M(240), an accepted high quality 24MP camera, using the same lenses in controlled conditions. Shortly, Jono Slack will be providing similar test results for an SL v A7II comparison, also controlled. Try the camera for yourself. Chasing about leaping to unfounded conclusions based on little is just making noise. This is is a new system, designed by people who've been making some of the finest cameras and optics for over 100 years. They do know what they're doing. Yes, sometimes they misjudge the market; and yes there can be quality control or other unanticipated problems. Those problems are not, generally, identified by DPreview or DXO - they're found here, by users, and by a relatively small group of competent testers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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