ingres vs. manet - any thoughts?

[smokysun]

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ah, this brings up an interesting question. when is it a style, a formula, a way of seeing, or a philosophy of life? as michael freeman says,

 

"...color excites opinion, and the very imprecision of the means we have of talking about it means that there are many standards for judging it esthetically."

 

are sargeant's silvers a mannerism or part of how he sees the world or something he wishes to say?

 

i suppose a formula could be described as a style that loses its emotional punch.

 

if i have an objection to alex webb, it's that his work in terms of meaning is definitely journalistic. figures are caught in a world over which they have no control. thus they become representative rather than individual. that, however, may be how webb sees the world. (and his name would certainly imply people are caught in a web.)

 

art seems to me a certain freedom. true, plenty of painters have displayed people caught up in circumstances. edvard munch comes to mind. and their work is powerful, but it eliminates the playful. (or does it? is the freeing in his wild use of color, despite the terror of events?) a photographer who finds brash color in the ordinary like martin parr might be called more artful. (still, this falls more into the category of readymades, since he deals so much with commercial products.) that said, a little of his work goes a long way.

 

a question: how many photographers hang color photographs done by other photographers on their wall? to live with something everyday don't we ask the work to keep its mystery? mostly, i suspect, we put our own color photos on the wall. (a master of b&w another story. he/she preserves the mystery of change.)

 

another freeman quote:

 

"In the context of color, style means an identifieable palette and a way of handling it, but it carries the risk of being caught in a narrow niche."

[smokysun]

ah, this brings up an interesting question. when is it a style, a formula, a way of seeing, or a philosophy of life? as michael freeman says,

 

"...color excites opinion, and the very imprecision of the means we have of talking about it means that there are many standards for judging it esthetically."

 

are sargeant's silvers a mannerism or part of how he sees the world or something he wishes to say?

 

i suppose a formula could be described as a style that loses its emotional punch.

 

if i have an objection to alex webb, it's that his work in terms of meaning is definitely journalistic. figures are caught in a world over which they have no control. thus they become representative rather than individual. that, however, may be how webb sees the world. (and his name would certainly imply people are caught in a web.)

 

art seems to me a certain freedom. true, plenty of painters have displayed people caught up in circumstances. edvard munch comes to mind. and their work is powerful, but it eliminates the playful. a photographer who finds brash color in the ordinary like martin parr might be called more artful. (still, this falls more into the category of readymades, since he deals so much with commercial products.) that said, a little of his work goes a long way.

 

a question: how many photographers hang color photographs done by other photographers on their wall? to live with something everyday don't we ask the work to keep its mystery? mostly, i suspect, we put our own color photos on the wall. (a master of b&w another story. he/she preserves the mystery of change.)

 

hasn't the lack of control over photo color limited its symbolic expressiveness?

[smokysun]

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[Guest stnami]

hasn't the lack of control over photo color limited its symbolic expressiveness?

..... probably not, PP has added to a photographers control

 

 

I probably hang this on a wall of Ward 017...... if they let me

 

more colour here................etrouko Imants Krumins

[smokysun]

ah, your picture disappeared. too bad. it seems to confirm what i've found out: fire away and fix the colors later. also, you almost always have to simplify to bring out form.

 

yes, theater and dance and parades all supply most of the color and much of it already coordinated:

 

goblin market dir. david davalos Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

 

but regular street shooting, etc is so beyond control in the moment that i think we need to begin accepting pp as a natural part of the process. after all, to adjust the colors so they work is an art in itself.

 

i've bought and consulted a slew of books on color and its history. the only one, however, that has enabled me to see better is

 

Amazon.com: Mastering Color Digital Photography (A Lark Photography Book): Books: Michael Freeman

 

and i'm starting to go thru it again. basic for those trained as painters but i haven't been.

[steve kessel]

but regular street shooting, etc is so beyond control in the moment that i think we need to begin accepting pp as a natural part of the process. after all, to adjust the colors so they work is an art in itself.QUOTE]

 

Wayne,

 

From my very limited observations and captures of the colours on my streets, there are all sorts of colour environments that we need to come to terms with, some appealing, some not. For instance where I work in London there are red buses, black street furniture (lampposts and railings), grey pavemnts, asphalt roads and the people mostly wear black or blue denim, hardly a tasty palette. But this is the truth of it and photography in our time will surely find ways to express it.

 

It seems to me that our age is one in which synthesised colour in the environment (advertising, cladding materials on buildings, the clothes people wear in cities, the way that light plays on these) presents many challenges that may have similarities with those faced by the old masters in painting as well as offering some exciting new opportunites. Within our colour environment is human action, also of its time and also playing out age old themes.

 

This has been such an interesting thread, I hope it continues.

 

Thanks for your many stimulating contributions. Steve.

[smokysun]

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hi steve,

 

thanks for your kind comments. the thread arose out of my frustration. there's been so much great street photography in b&w. yet the affect of color seems to rob it of its presence. people seem to lose their individuality and become representative types or merely colored designs. i don't know if you have

 

Amazon.com: Amazon: From the Floodplains to the Clouds: Books: Alex Webb

 

which i've mentioned before. he has a colorful, exotic subject, so he's halfway there, but what is unique, i think, in this book is his angle of vision. things come together in a striking way, even if the photos lack what i like in so many of the french street photographers: people as individuals. this particularly true of my favorite

 

Amazon.com: Paris: Books: Robert Doisneau,Deke Dusinberre

 

we haven't really discussed street photography as a form of portraiture, but for me it is. people interest me more than any other subject, despite the fact of shooting lots of window displays, etc. and when i look up from a book of b&w portraits, the people in barnes & noble look like paintings in color! b&w really makes us see form. no doubt why painting students study values so much in charcoal, etc.

 

on the whole i think modern cities make the task more difficult as people have become so guarded in public places. we really do make our faces impassive to ride the subway. that's why i prefer events. people loosen up and don't mind the camera so much.

 

i did run across a book at the library last night

 

Amazon.com: Light Fantastic: The Art And Design of Stage Lighting: Books: Max Keller,Johannes Weiss

 

which looks very promising, though the dvd with it not very helpful. don't know why it took me so long, considering all the dance and theater stuff i've done.

 

maybe color street stuff takes more patience than i have. for example, the picture below. this scene held a lot of promise color-wise and i don't think i got the best out of it. recently i read professionals often wait long periods of time in one spot or re-visit it a number of times to get what that want. perhaps that's more my trouble than anything else.

 

thanks again. i hope people keep contributing to the discussion as i keep learning from it.

 

wayne

 

ps. if you want to see any more attempts from that event: peace in the plaza Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

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[steve kessel]

Hi Wayne

 

I like the picture you posted - I think it has the ingredients of a classic: lovely gestures, framing, crops, etc. Also lots of interesting ones of the same event in your link. You are certainly correct that people loosen up at fairs, demos, markets and so on. I like to think that there's theatre in the everyday too, just as the everyday often makes great theatre on the stage. As for colour, I like to believe one can work with what's out there and that post processing is just for "tweaking" (UK for minor adjustments). But I am a mere novice at this game.

 

You recommend so many interesting books, so here's one that looks like it has potential:

 

Amazon.co.uk: Street Photography: From Brassai to Cartier-Bresson : Books

 

(Sorry I don't know how to get the red, one click link)

 

Finally I'm posting a picture that I put up a week or so ago that encourages to me keep at it.

 

Best wishes

 

Steve

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[Guest stnami]

we haven't really discussed street photography as a form of portraiture,

....probably a hard nut to crack, if one is trying to convey the personality as oppossed to the subjective. It may really be a matter of colours and tone setting the mood and the one quickly runs intothe problem of a shallow interpretation

[smokysun]

i like both these pictures. steve's has me focusing actually on the dark figure seen between the two close ones.who is that? and imants' makes me wonder about this person as a person. perhaps that's all we can ask for. a quick catch may not go very deep. yet i still think it's up to the photographer him/herself. how interesting are you, and does the picture taken make the viewer curious enough to ask a question (maybe a question you asked yourself)? in both these pictures color plays a crucial part, the distant dark figure and the one in an unusual light which gives him a three-dimensional feel (an imants specialty).

 

some people like william klein are fearless, blunt, and in the subjects' faces. others like hcb more private and distant. yet there is an active presence behind the camera.

 

i admit, i subscribe to webshots and have hundreds of lovely stock pictures passing across my screen all the time. part of their stockness (and beauty) may come from the absence of the photographer. there is no feeling of a person present taking the picture. whereas with a robert frank you travel behind 'his' eyes and nobody else's. this singular view certainly one of the mysteries in the great street photographers.

 

thanks for the book tip. looks like it's coming out in britain first. no sign on amazon here. definitely covers the golden age, all b&w i'd bet. thanks for the kind words.

 

my best,

 

wayne

 

ps. this question of portraits remains fascinating for me. is every great portait an amalgam of photographer and subject? do we pick out something of ourselves in the other person. this is defintely a book to consult: Amazon.com: Faces: A Narrative History of the Portrait in Photography: Books: Ben Maddow,Constance Sullivan

 

for example, does nadar find the nadar in baudelaire? perhaps we cannot paint or photograph what we are not. if the subject is completely strange to us, can it have personality?

[smokysun]

just wanted to recommend the latest issue of this magazine

 

Focus Fine Art Photography Magazine - The Premire Magazine For Collecting Fine Art Photography

 

the first time i've run across it in town. interesting because it's high quality printing, meant to appeal to collectors, with every kind of color and b&w photo. color and b&w may oppose each other on the same page. also tinted, etc, photos. the whole range. and i must admit, it's very hard to look at the color pics after the b&w. the latter very calming and meditative and often touching, while the color seems garish and hits you in the face. the whole world may live and love color (and i do) but i can see why so many photographers continue to love b&w.