msadat Posted April 21, 2007 Share #1 Posted April 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) it seems very much to me that leica has under estimated their current customers and their skill set in using tools like M8. the issues of back focus, with multiple lenses, the magenta issues, banding.....lack of proper support & service (DMR, issues as well) etc. i think they need to know when people spend bucks on these stuff ($$$$) they expect quality and service. my guess is leica was counting on old farts who can't see and shoot to use the new tool; all the sudden people (in masses) are questioning the quality of M8, focus accuracy and taking matters in their hands (hex!!!) trying to fix what leica should have gotten right. i have gone through a lot of digital cameras, including the contax ND and the rest of canon and nikon high end. all have had some issues (minor) but quickly fixed. so far, this has been the hardest to grasp. i had to find the hard way about the filters, firmware issues, focus issues and now the fact the leica IR filters (4 months later) is formulated different than BW (the most popular) I am not getting their marketing strategies and direction... this is slow death.... at some point they need to come clean or else they are history....leica is now owned by one person, i really wish he has a direct line to this forum; so he can filter out what is good & important and put the good use PS currently one of my M8 and some of my 50mm asph lenses all of which have issues together are in Solms for family therapy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 21, 2007 Posted April 21, 2007 Hi msadat, Take a look here leica's under esitamated (s) thier customers. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted April 21, 2007 Share #2 Posted April 21, 2007 We have been over this time and time again here, I'm afraid. Have a look through the old posts and see that this topic has been done to death already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted April 21, 2007 Share #3 Posted April 21, 2007 For every customer encountering "issues" .. there are always other customers who encounter no issues at all ...... Of the 10 lenses i tested and used one the M8 the last 6 months, including Noctilux, 75 lux, 35 cron etc. .... i did not have one single lens with focussing issues . I do not say there are no issues ..... but from a lot of threads i read here and on other Leica related forums i can only conclude one thing: to take everything i read on those forums with a big grain of salt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 21, 2007 Share #4 Posted April 21, 2007 I think Leica are punching above their weight in interacting with their customers. Just try to get the same openness out of Nikon or Canon. And let's not talk about Epson. It was always going to be like that. Leica has long prided itself in top-drawer customer service. Sure, things may take a bit longer than we would like, but that's a reflection of limited capacity which can't be immediately increased - would you want your lenses adjusted by a college kid who would rather be flipping hamburgers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted April 21, 2007 Share #5 Posted April 21, 2007 I think Leica are punching above their weight in interacting with their customers. Just try to get the same openness out of Nikon or Canon. And let's not talk about Epson.? On this Mark I agree with you 100% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted April 21, 2007 Share #6 Posted April 21, 2007 For every customer encountering "issues" .. there are always other customers who encounter no issues at all ...... Of the 10 lenses i tested and used one the M8 the last 6 months, including Noctilux, 75 lux, 35 cron etc. .... i did not have one single lens with focussing issues .I do not say there are no issues ..... but from a lot of threads i read here and on other Leica related forums i can only conclude one thing: to take everything i read on those forums with a big grain of salt I would say every customer had the issue of the IR Cut filter and it is major issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 21, 2007 Share #7 Posted April 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think Leica are punching above their weight in interacting with their customers. Just try to get the same openness out of Nikon or Canon. And let's not talk about Epson. It was always going to be like that. Leica has long prided itself in top-drawer customer service. Sure, things may take a bit longer than we would like, but that's a reflection of limited capacity which can't be immediately increased - would you want your lenses adjusted by a college kid who would rather be flipping hamburgers? I agree with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted April 21, 2007 Share #8 Posted April 21, 2007 Would you want your lenses adjusted by a college kid who would rather be flipping hamburgers? The local Canon CPS can change a 1Ds shutter in 1 hour. Canon may not be open, but the resources they throw at the pros are amazing. I don't think that Leica's competition are dumb, incompetent, or that their staff lacks training. It is not so. The truth is, they didn't low-cost Leica out of the market, they out-engineered them, with the help of modern production methods and statistical quality control. Remember those "cheap" Japanese cameras and lenses from Canon and Nikon which came out in the 60s and 70s and which killed the German camera industry ? Well those Canon lenses are actually quite good, and the Nikon F cameras can still be seen going strong, they were built to last. Kids flipping hamburgers ? Hahaha. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted April 21, 2007 Share #9 Posted April 21, 2007 it seems very much to me that leica has under estimated their current customers and their skill set in using tools like M8. the issues of back focus, with multiple lenses, the magenta issues, banding.....lack of proper support & service (DMR, issues as well) etc. i think they need to know when people spend bucks on these stuff ($$$$) they expect quality and service. my guess is leica was counting on old farts who can't see and shoot to use the new tool; all the sudden people (in masses) are questioning the quality of M8, focus accuracy and taking matters in their hands (hex!!!) trying to fix what leica should have gotten right. i have gone through a lot of digital cameras, including the contax ND and the rest of canon and nikon high end. all have had some issues (minor) but quickly fixed. so far, this has been the hardest to grasp. i had to find the hard way about the filters, firmware issues, focus issues and now the fact the leica IR filters (4 months later) is formulated different than BW (the most popular) I am not getting their marketing strategies and direction... this is slow death.... at some point they need to come clean or else they are history....leica is now owned by one person, i really wish he has a direct line to this forum; so he can filter out what is good & important and put the good use PS currently one of my M8 and some of my 50mm asph lenses all of which have issues together are in Solms for family therapy Another expert who knows it all. Who rattled your cage? Haven't wee seen that-wouldn't it be time to move on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted April 21, 2007 Share #10 Posted April 21, 2007 It has been said, and I will repeat it (though I have recently criticized Leica for their system of lens coding, and still do) that the issues with the M8 are a direct result of the feat of coming up with a digital M rangefinder, built to the same standards as the film Ms, not much bigger, compatible with almost all M mount lenses, and with exceptional image quality. Maybe it was released a little too soon, but we have to give them the credit of trying their darn best to fix everything as quickly as possible. Their communication strategy is fuzzy, to the least, they are somewhat overwhelmed by their own success, they can't provide their filters as promised, but they do respond, and even reply, to their customers. The magenta issue is behind us now, and we have all learned to live with it and the IR-cut filters. It remains surprising, though, that Leica would not have anticipated that when they decided to drop the IR filter in front of the sensor. Let's hope that, from now on, all Leica lenses will be sold with the mandatory fiter, for the same price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 21, 2007 Share #11 Posted April 21, 2007 It remains surprising, though, that Leica would not have anticipated that when they decided to drop the IR filter in front of the sensor. Sadly, working photographers (as Sean likes to call them) who had early access to the camera failed to tell Leica that in real-world photography, the magenta was going to be an issue. It was, if I recall correctly, Pascal who first blew the whistle... and all credit to him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 21, 2007 Share #12 Posted April 21, 2007 Mark, I guessing they saw it - I can't imagine how they wouldn't :-) - but Leica told them they were working on certain colour 'issues'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted April 21, 2007 Share #13 Posted April 21, 2007 The local Canon CPS can change a 1Ds shutter in 1 hour. Canon may not be open, but the resources they throw at the pros are amazing. I don't think that Leica's competition are dumb, incompetent, or that their staff lacks training. It is not so. The truth is, they didn't low-cost Leica out of the market, they out-engineered them, with the help of modern production methods and statistical quality control. Remember those "cheap" Japanese cameras and lenses from Canon and Nikon which came out in the 60s and 70s and which killed the German camera industry ? Well those Canon lenses are actually quite good, and the Nikon F cameras can still be seen going strong, they were built to last. Kids flipping hamburgers ? Hahaha. Edmund While much of that is true. No point in looking back at the 60's. Leica today is the alternative to the big heavy fully loaded DSLR not a competitor for majority market share. The premise of this thread however is way off base. Leica gives more credence and respect to it's customers feedback then any camera manufacturer I know at least in the case of the M8 (DMR users might have other opinions). They have responded very proactively to user comments already including fixes and changes in firmware. How much interaction and support did Contax ND owners get? Leica does not have the means to match Canon's pro program but "punching above it's weight" is a good analogy for the whole M8 endeavor up until now. I don't think hyperbole will provide much in the way of constructive feedback for future improvements in the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 21, 2007 Share #14 Posted April 21, 2007 This thread is one of those threads that just makes your head ring. maybe best to hang up. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted April 21, 2007 Share #15 Posted April 21, 2007 too many wrong numbers lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thpeters Posted April 21, 2007 Share #16 Posted April 21, 2007 Format this tread, then we have a clean sheet. Theo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted April 22, 2007 Share #17 Posted April 22, 2007 Andy, Your dismissal of this post as "already done to death" would be fine if only you would--please!--post such a comment the next time someone asks whether to buy this or that lens. In the meantime, it seems to me that as a moderator you might show some neutrality. This is not, in my impression, a forum solely about M8 equipment purchases, but one about the entire experience of owning and using an M8. There are many of us--including some of Leica's biggest U.S. dealers--very concerned about the erratic, often poor quality of Leica support and the implications of this for the M8 as a useful, maintainable, camera. As troubling as it seems to be for some, the topic should not simply be silenced by you (or for that matter by Guy, who is a defacto moderator). Leica should hear this kind of concern, whether some forum members agree with it or not. If some members do not agree, they need not read the post or, as an option, they might respond with something substantive rather than nasty, dismissive personal attacks. As it is, you are supporting the ugly reponses that this topic seems to bring up. And you are driving away some of the potential forum members Leica should be listening to. I find the M8 a remarkable achievement and I am very appreicative for it. But the camera is, finally, going to live or die on its support. Personally, I don't yet know which way it's going to go. Walt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 22, 2007 Share #18 Posted April 22, 2007 In the meantime, it seems to me that as a moderator you might show some neutrality. This is not, in my impression, a forum solely about M8 equipment purchases, but one about the entire experience of owning and using an M8. >snip As it is, you are supporting the ugly reponses that this topic seems to bring up. And you are driving away some of the potential forum members Leica should be listening to. If you could point me to a thread where I have not been impartial, I will gladly review my position. Just so that we are clear, this is a forum solely about Leica Cameras, lenses and users. This is not an exclusive M8 forum. The "Digital" section of this forum (and there are other sections for other Leica interests), is for users of ALL Leica digital cameras, film users who use scanners, people who use Photoshop and so on. People asking questions with regards to which lens to purchase are asking legitimate questions. Starting another thread saying how terrible you consider Leica after-care to be seems to me to be somewhat odd. We have already learned that Leica have got the message and are doing all that they can to help their rapidly growing number of M8 owners. Poking them in the ribs every other day isn't going to help, IMHO. Finally, perhaps you could tell me where I have been supporting ugly responses. It is impossible for any one person to read all the posts on this, or any other busy forum, so, if you consider that there are inappropriate responses from anyone, about any topic, please use the red/white triangle alert button in the field on the LHS of the post. This will bring the post to the attention of all the moderators - and there are several of us, it's not just me - together with the Admin. We can then deal with the offending post appropriately. Many thanks. Edit: BTW, I have tried to respond to the email that you sent to me, covering the above topic, but unfortunately, like many US email servers, your email account is rejecting some UK email addresses. Please do not think that I am ignoring your email. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted April 22, 2007 Share #19 Posted April 22, 2007 Walt it has been done to death.................try a search or two before ya start flappin into a tailspin........ for you seeing you are such a nice guy one more time.............once upon a time................................................ and it turned into a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted April 22, 2007 Share #20 Posted April 22, 2007 Starting another thread saying how terrible you consider Leica after-care to be seems to me to be somewhat odd. I don't see why that should seem any more odd than starting a thread asking strangers which lens to buy. I think the original poster's question is perfectly legitimate. My own personal view is that Leica did indeed underestimate its customers - certainly, Leica underestimated the extent to which customers would share information via the internet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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