Luxury Brand or High End Tool Maker?

[sean_reid]

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Sean,

 

well stated.

 

Thanks Jeff.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[Guest stnami]

Let me put it this way. The best tools always command a premium. But that permium is as a result of their functional excellence.

Well leica have got the lenses down pat, just waiting for the camera and software now.....without the patchups

[RSL]

I may be in a minority with this view, but I would like to see the M8 be as accessible to as wide a range of photographers as possible. I care more about it as a functional tool than as an example of "a fine thing". We don't know yet who the 21st century Winogrand will be but I'd like him or her to be able to have the option of using a Leica M8/M9 etc. If that photographer can make successful pictures with the $300 lens he or she can afford to put on the M8 - great.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean, Well said. In 1965 I came back from a year in Vietnam with a Canon 7, which was at least equal to the Leica M2 in quality, and used Leica-thread screw lenses. Shortly after I got back I bought an M2, then a IIIf, and in 1967 I sold my Canon 7 and bought an M4. I also was using a 4 x 5 view camera and a Rollei. Each tool was good for a specific kind of job, but I bought the Leicas and sold the Canon because the cloth Leica shutters were considerably quieter than the Canon's titanium one. I bought the M2 and IIIf used, at used camera prices. Neither was something you'd think of as a "collector" item. The brand new M4 with 50mm f/2 Summicron was a bit more expensive, but not all that much more expensive than the Canon had been.

 

All of these were working cameras. In those days I don't think anyone had ever considered a camera of any kind, other than, perhaps, my grandfather's beautiful 5 x 7 wooden view camera, as something to "collect." The camera collecting bug began to grab people in the 80s and 90s, and Leica jumped on that bandwagon. Now you can buy an M7 "50 Year M System Special Edition Set" for around $9,000. It's that kind of crap that's distanced Leica at least to some extent from the working camera market. I keep finding people on these threads who talk about how valuable the M8 is likely to be as a collector's item somewhere down the road. I can't knock that kind of talk because that's exactly the kind of image Leica's gone out of its way to proclaim. But it sure doesn't help make it likely that the next Winogrand will be using an M8.

[jrc]

How can people keep forgetting David Douglas Duncan and his M3D Leicas....

 

I'm not positive about this, but I think Duncan was the guy who publicly ditched his Leicas at the beginning of the Vietnam war in favor of the Nikon F, that first made the F into a "must-have" for hot photojournalists.

 

JC

[sean_reid]

I'm not positive about this, but I think Duncan was the guy who publicly ditched his Leicas at the beginning of the Vietnam war in favor of the Nikon F, that first made the F into a "must-have" for hot photojournalists.

 

JC

 

No, actually he kept the Leicas for work with wide and standard lenses and used the Nikons for telephoto work. One of each was usually around his neck. Several pictures of him at work during the Vietnam war document this. I have the same preference, FWIW (SLRs for long lenses).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Joe Mondello]

Joe - even as "cheap" as those Nikkors may seem in comparison to Leica glass, to the average photographer they are still hard to justify. And for most pros, Leica is still hard to justify when it comes right down to it. For the person who uses a Canon Rebel - a $2900 50mm lens is unfathomable. How can it NOT be perceived as a luxury item?

 

Hi Dan, hey! we're practically neighbors globally speaking! (I'm in Manhattan)

 

I get your point but would differentiate a "luxury item" from a "professional tool".

 

I posted the price comparison of Leica and Nikon pro glass to point out that professional lenses of arguably equal quality can and are being made less expensively in the climate of far larger sales.

 

My Dad had a graphic art studio and we had Forox stand cameras which at the time (1970s and 80s) cost tens of thousands of dollars as I recall and used Micro Nikkor lenses. The Forox was strictly a professional product for professional use only, there was no overlap into the world of weekend photographers. Among the other professional tools we had on hand were Leica Ms, Nikon Fs, a pair of Hasseblad C500s, a Speed Graphic or two, Rollie 3.5 and 2.8, an 8x10 Deardorf and a locking metal cabinet with 2 shelves just full of lenses -- all professional photography tools, nary a luxury item in sight!

 

The fact that affluent amateur photogs can afford these pro tools and appreciate them for the finely made things they are still doesn't make them luxury items in my eyes. I guess that's because the design and construction is primarily functional not primarily decorative.

 

There is very little function to jewelry. Am I making sense?

[Joe Mondello]

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No, actually he kept the Leicas for work with wide and standard lenses and used the Nikons for telephoto work. One of each was usually around his neck. Several pictures of him at work during the Vietnam war document this. I have the same preference, FWIW (SLRs for long lenses).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Hmmm I read something about this in some history of photography about my birthmonth.

 

In October 1950, David Duncan during a visit to New York goes public with the news of how Nikkor lenses were superior to German lenses. <snip> Nippon Kogaku and Nikkor become then famous outside Japan. This boosted the Japanese camera industry.

 

Same guy?

[sean_reid]

Same guy?

 

I would think so but I don't know.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[johnastovall]

And there are more, and a more still a few about today. It's the images that keep the brand viable with photographers. It would be a tradgedy if Leica abandoned that great heritage.

 

Your perspective on this can color your opinion on what specific actions Leica should take. You can view the unanticipated IR problem as an opportinuty to make the M8 more 'exclusive' or you can see it as a blow to Leica's plan to broaden it's base and get the camera into the hands of more photographers like those on the list. In that case you would think it is a priority for Leica to do what ever it takes to undue the negative impact of this issue on the original promise of the camera. I think Leica's identification with luxury watchmakers and pen makers by so many says a lot as to how far they have fallen and how much ground they have to make up.

 

To me the IR problem cost Leica about 12K dollars. I was set to get an M8 and 3 Leica lenses and one Ziess but during the critical first 4 weeks of when the problem became know and their handling of it convinced me they weren't prepared to be a serious player. I've put the money into an R-D1 for a fun rangefinder, some nice CV lenses and having my old LTM lenses reworked, Ziess Glass for my 5D and a fund for the next generation Canon 1Ds. It broke my heart when I had to sell my M3 in grad school with it's lenses and I wanted a Digitial Leica rangefinder but I value technology. It should work not have to under go work arounds to the degree I see the M8 requiring.

 

I hope they get it right with the next generation and we can forget about lens coding and external filters but until then I stay with Canon when it comes to serious money and play with the Epson.

[johnastovall]

I'm not positive about this, but I think Duncan was the guy who publicly ditched his Leicas at the beginning of the Vietnam war in favor of the Nikon F, that first made the F into a "must-have" for hot photojournalists.

 

JC

 

No, he had his M3D's at Khe Sanh. He also used a Nikon with a 200 for some work there. He also used only Leicas for all the shoots in "Self-Portrait: U.S.A. "

[Riley]

all low run high end cameras will be expensive, even for the Japanese who have some skills in mass manufacture. In 2005 Nikon decided to make a run of the 35mm SP rangefinder. These cameras are no more complicated than a film Leica, and less complicated than an SLR.

 

They cost around US$5,000 each, even at that, demand was so high that people were willing to spend more to jump the que, and unscrupulous dealers were ready to accommodate them. Very few of them ever made it out of Japan, it was yet another camera intended for Japan only consumption.

 

The costs of tooling are not going to be too much different for Leica or Nikon. Some labour costs and associated componentry from 2nd or 3rd string suppliers will be a little higher. Assembly will largely be by hand, as I doubt there would be much economy in configuring robots. The price floor is closely associated to the size of the product run and the costs associated to it, and it is then elevated to 'what the market will bare'.

 

It should escape no-ones attention that both cosmetically beautiful low run cameras, and high end professional tools are expensive. That a Leica can be both gives testament that a great deal of thought and effort has gone into this design. I can recall that back in 2002-3 it was deemed impossible to do this and that a digital M would never be, yet people would have done anything at the time to have one all the same. When it finally arrives its a different story, the cries about the compromises with the IRcut and the lens coding go on and on and on.

 

Based on the experiences with the SP from the well resourced Nikon, I doubt you will ever get a production camera out of Europe that is cheap to buy, and yet has a quality build and construction. The notion of handing the keys of the beloved Aston Martin over to Vauxhall, thereby producing V8 Hillman Imps for the masses might work for Ford or General Motors in the short term, but these companies too now live on the very edge of survival. Expecting a decent product to appear at the other end is just completely whacky. The idea of it would be so totally abhorrent to Solms , so far from their business construct, and reduce the face value of the brand forever.

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