For Macro - 60, 100 or 35-70?

[sfage]

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The best zoom I have ever worked with is the 80-200mm f/4.5n AI (seen on rockwell's site).

 

Nikon's 10 Best Lenses

 

It's an incredible lens.

 

Here's an example: http://500px.com/photo/4749959

 

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[jip]

I'll try when I get the chance and use a 28-90, sounds like a better range of a zoom too. Don't like the price tag though.

[masjah]

Try out the 28-90 f/2.8-4.3 Vario-Elmarit asph if you have the opportunity, Jip, and you might be in for a surprise.

 

Pete.

 

Agreed.

 

I do though also take the point about the superiority of primes, other things being equal. But other things often aren't. For example, if the designer compromises on maximum aperture, and is prepared to put up with bulk, cost and mechanical complexity, then it is possible to get prime performance out of a zoom. IMHO the 28-90 is a modern, stae of the art design, and is such a case in point.

[CrisRose]

Thank you for all your input guys. If I see a great deal in the 100, I'll snag it, otherwise I'll pickup a 60

 

The 35-70 4 caught my eye, mainly based on Putz's analysis of it compared to primes. As the R will be mainly a compliment to my Ms, having a 50-90 SLR (with DMR crop) and some mild macro in one lens makes it nice and easy to pull it out when it's a rare shot that sits outside my Ms comfort zone.

 

The 60 would be mainly for studio use.

[jip]

CrisRose, that is the exact reason I chose the 35-70 1:4 over the 28-70 3.5-4.5

 

1 it has less range, but has the added Macro function, I can go wide with my M9 anyway...

 

here is another Macro shot I did with the DMR and 35-70:

L4530394 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[pgk]

Top of the list is the Vario Elmar 35-70 f4, which I will be buying first regardless. It has a macro setting, so now I'm wondering if I should even bother picking up the 60/2.8 Macro Elmarit, or the 100m macro.

As I see it you are looking at two very different types of lens here. The 60 and original 100mm macro are very versatile designs in that they are 'conventionally' designed macro lenses capable of excellent result down to and exceeding 1:1 reproduction ratio. They will also perform well at infinity. Their downside is the need for extension tubes/bellows to obtain that versatility and in the case of the 60mm, a complex but very well engineered focus mechanism. The later 100mm lens is optimised to work exceptionally well indeed at down to 1:1 with the added close-up lens but is not really designed to extend its distance from the image plane so is less versatile. If you don't intend to use the lenses beyond 1:1 then all are very good but the older 100mm is probably the one which will show its design age first. I think that the 60mm is a real gem myself and so much regretted selling mine that I've just re-bought one.

[dkCambridgeshire]

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Has anyone tried using an Elpro 2 (55mm thread, 4.92 diopter) or an Elpro 1 (55mm thread, 2.51 diopter) on a 35-70mm R lens? A 60mm to 55mm step down ring would be required; Heliopan list same. I suspect that the lens' close-up performance could be improved by adding Elpro lenses. I'm amazed by what can be achieved with Elpro lenses used on the X Vario's zoom lens.

 

And does anyone know the exact native magnification possible with the 35-70mm f4 R lens? Measuring same with the DMR can be ascertained by focusing on a ruler at the closest focusing distance whereby sensor width 26.4mm divided by length of ruler in mm.visible in viewfinder = magnification. Or, if using e.g. an R8 or R9 as a film camera, 36mm divided by length of ruler in mm visible in viewfinder = magnification.

 

The reason I'm curious about 35-70 f4 R lens' native magnification is that zoom lenses' macro modes, seldom are true 'macro'. They might focus to 1:4 (ish) ... which for marketing purposes some manufacturers like to assume is 'macro' ... but they do not focus to the 1:2 magnification and beyond possible with marque macro lenses.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[jip]

Dunk:

 

Durch den Einsatz einer Linse mit asphä- rischer Fläche sind der Kontrast und die Bildwiedergabequalität dieses Objektivs mindestens genauso gut wie bei ver- gleichbaren Festbrennweiten. Mit seiner ausgezeichneten Abstufung im Schatten- bereich und bei Spitzlichtern eignet es sich besonders für Motive mit starken Lichtkontrasten. Dank Makroeinstellung sind Nahaufnahmen bis 26 cm Entfer- nung möglich, was einem Abbildungs- verhältnis von 1:2,8 entspricht. Als uni- verselles Vario-Objektiv deckt es die klassischen Brennweiten ab. All diese Eigenschaften machen es zu einem unverzichtbaren Standardobjektiv im Leica R-System.

 

This is what I read about the 35-70 F4 in the "R-System Broschuere_de.pdf" (Page 32)

 

Close focussing distance is 26CM, with a reproduction ratio of 1:2,8. Count in the DMR and it works even a little better ^^

[jip]

I'll make a new thread about the quality of the Macro function of the 35-70 on a DMR... They will be mainly test shots on a tin can, so we can see the reproduction ration etc etc.

[xalo]

Has anyone tried using an Elpro 2 (55mm thread, 4.92 diopter) or an Elpro 1 (55mm thread, 2.51 diopter) on a 35-70mm R lens? A 60mm to 55mm step down ring would be required; Heliopan list same. I suspect that the lens' close-up performance could be improved by adding Elpro lenses. I'm amazed by what can be achieved with Elpro lenses used on the X Vario's zoom lens.

...

dunk

 

Dunk, that's an excellent idea. I have yet to try this with my Elpro 2, which really is astonishing glass that I combined with several lenses, incl. of other makes. My version (double thread, also for old 50/2) will likely lead to vignetting on 24x36, but APS-crop and 4/3 should be fine. Jip, perhaps also worth a trial on the DMS.

Cheers,

Alexander

[dkCambridgeshire]

Dunk, that's an excellent idea. I have yet to try this with my Elpro 2, which really is astonishing glass that I combined with several lenses, incl. of other makes. My version (double thread, also for old 50/2) will likely lead to vignetting on 24x36, but APS-crop and 4/3 should be fine. Jip, perhaps also worth a trial on the DMS.

Cheers,

Alexander

 

 

I doubt if it will vignette if the Elpro is used at the 70mm setting. The main problem will be finding the 60mm to 55mm step down ring ... any adaptor with a 60mm male thread is scarce.

 

jip: Thank you; I just accessed Leica's PDF spec. for the 35-70 f4 :

 

Technical Data

 

Angle of view (diagonal, horizontal, vertical) At 35 mm focal length: 63°, 54°, 38°,

at 70 mm focal length: 34°, 29°, 19°

 

Optical design Number of elements / groups: 8 / 7

 

Distance setting Focusing range: 0.5 m to Infinity, in macro-position 0.26 m

Scale: Combined meter/feet-increments

Smallest object field: 28 mm focal length: 350 x 525 mm, at 70 mm focal length: 192 x 288 mm,

in macro-position: 67 x 101 mm

Highest reproduction ratio: 28 mm focal length: 1:14.6, 70 mm focal length: 1:8,

in macro-position: 1:2.8

 

Diaphragm Setting / Type: Preset diaphragm with clickstops (including half values), Fully automatic diaphragm

 

Bayonet LEICA R quick-change bayonet for LEICA R3 to LEICA R9 with mechanical, and, for LEICA R8/R9,

additional electronic exposure control

 

Filter (type) Internal thread for screw-in type filters E 60

 

Lens hood Separate, screw-in type, also attachable in reverse position

 

Dimensions and weight Length: ca. 79 mm Largest diameter: ca. 74 mm

Weight: ca. 505

 

The 1:2.8 reproduction ratio at the macro setting is exceptional - that's approx 1/3 life size.

 

Erwin Puts' 'Leica Lens Compendium' praises the lens and states that at f4 it out-performs the 35/2 Summicron R and the 80/1.4 Summilux R.

 

I'm even more curious now as to the possibilities with Leitz Elpro lenses added.

 

And if I see one of these lenses for sale I'd be tempted to buy.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[jip]

Dunk:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-r-leica-flex/300304-macro-test-35-70-f4.htm

 

See the new thread I started to talk on further about the 35-70's macro capabilities.

[xalo]

I doubt if it will vignette if the Elpro is used at the 70mm setting. The main problem will be finding the 60mm to 55mm step down ring ... any adaptor with a 60mm male thread is scarce. ...

 

To be tried. FWIW, Heliopan makes the adaptor, B&H sells it; so I suppose others, too.

Alexander

[bcorton]

Agreed.

 

. . . if the designer compromises on maximum aperture, and is prepared to put up with bulk, cost and mechanical complexity, then it is possible to get prime performance out of a zoom. IMHO the 28-90 is a modern, stae of the art design, and is such a case in point.

 

Very true. The f4 Vario-Elmar 35-70mm is also such a lens in my opinion. Leica's statements on the lens agree well with Puts's, i.e., that the lens IS as good as primes of equivalent focal lengths. This is achieved largely by limiting the lens's aperture to f4. In Leica's own words: "With the use of one lens element with an aspherical surface, contrast and imaging quality of this lens are at least as good as those of lenses with comparable fixed focal lengths. With its excellent gradation in shadow areas and highlights, it is particularly well suited for subjects with strong light contrasts. Thanks to a macro setting, close-up pictures as near as 26 cm (10.5 inches) are possible, which corresponds to a reproduction ratio of 1:2.8."

 

With the DMR crop, the reproduction ratio works out to be very close to 1:2. For me, this is close enough for most of what I'm interested in. However, I don't think this lens has the orthographic rendering necessary for reproduction of art, or something equally critical. The 60mm would be a better choice for that. But for flowers and bugs, at 1:2, it's not bad at all. It is my favorite lens for my R9/DMR.

 

'Just my 2 pfennig.

 

Brent

[bcorton]

Chris,

 

Here's a photo I made last Wednesday, quickly and dirtily processed in Iridient Developer. It isn't even a full macro. This was shot with the zoom between 70mm and the locked-in macro position. It is quite useable in this in-between mode. In any case, I find it has a lovely rendering.

 

'another zwei Pfennig,

 

Brent

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[CrisRose]

Very interesting conversation, I didn't expect so much discussion.

 

I didn't expect the macro on a Vario to be the same as a dedicated 60/100 macro, but not owning either at the moment and trying to work out how to spend my money most effectively, I though I'd ask for a general idea. It could have been that the Vario was awful, but it seems to me that for most of my needs (ie. closer than my M can get) it seems pretty good, but I can see myself getting th 60 later. I wont stretch myself trying to get them together tho. The 100/2.8 is away out my price range.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Very interesting conversation, I didn't expect so much discussion.

 

I didn't expect the macro on a Vario to be the same as a dedicated 60/100 macro, but not owning either at the moment and trying to work out how to spend my money most effectively, I though I'd ask for a general idea. It could have been that the Vario was awful, but it seems to me that for most of my needs (ie. closer than my M can get) it seems pretty good, but I can see myself getting th 60 later. I wont stretch myself trying to get them together tho. The 100/2.8 is away out my price range.

 

Do you have any Leica R prime lenses? The 50mm Summicron, 90mm, 135mm and 180mm all produce good results with the various Leitz Elpro supplementary c/u lenses.

 

dunk

[algrove]

What is the PN for the ElPro2, please?

[xalo]

Mine is 16542 (double thread). Not sure if there are other models.

Alexander

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[dkCambridgeshire]

Here are the product numbers and specifications of the 55mm thread Leitz Elpros and the lenses best suited to them at the time when those lenses were current. Elpro lenses can also be used in combination with the 14256 Macro Adaptor R, the 14158/14159 two and three part ring extension tube set and the two R bellows.

 

16541 Elpro 1 2.51 diopter (dual thread M55 and M44) 50/2

16542 Elpro 2 4.92 diopter (dual thread M55 and M44) 50/2

16543 Elpro 3 1.66 diopter 90/2.8, 90/2, 100/4, 135/2.8, 180/4, 75-200 f4.5

16544 Elpro 4 0.75 diopter 100/4, 135/2.8, 180/4, 75-200 f4.5

 

And the Series VI (M44 thread) and Series VII (M54 thread)

 

16531 Elpro VIa 2.51 diopter 50/2

16532 Elpro VIb 4.92 diopter 50/2

16533 Elpro VIIa 1.66 diopter 90/2.8, 90/2, 100/4, 135/2.8

16534 Elpro VIIb 0.75 diopter 100/4, 135/2.8, 180/4, 75-200 f4.5

 

 

Other R lenses which have been introduced since the above R lenses were current can also be used. I have found that Elpro lenses work superbly with the Leica X1 and X2 and X Vario using various adaptors. With the X series cameras, the Elpro VIb and Elpro 2, either singly or as two or three stacked, provide all the magnification necessary to fill the frame with a small coin http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/299919-coins-x-vario-leitz-elpros.html

 

All Elpro supplementary close-up lenses are well corrected achromats and can often be sourced at quite reasonable prices e.g. £30 and less. I have often seen them listed for £15 when sold without their original slip cases. But beware of the Ebay lister 'chancers' who regularly list them for extortionate and loaded prices (e.g. £89 'with free postage' !!) - and often with inaccurate descriptions as regards possible magnification. One such Ebay seller even listed an Elpro 3 as being capable of 3x magnification! He obviously had not done his homework. Those same Ebay listers usually 'try it on' with other Leitz/Leica products. Note I refer to them as 'listers' and 'chancers' rather than 'dealers'. The respected and well known 'proper' Leica dealers sell Elpro lenses for much less.

 

Note that the Leitz 'Macrotar' series VI and VII c/u lenses are optically exactly the same as Leitz Elpro lenses.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk