With friends like this, who needs enemies?

[colonel]

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But you do seem to care, I don't have any interest in how you spend your money, and I don't understand why you're trying to convince others to buy it.

 

Otherwise, nice post.

 

I am not specifically. It crept in on the iPad.

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[colonel]

*colonel rabbits on about using a zoom

 

I can't understand how you can criticise that I wanted a zoom in this place.

 

Also the language is so insulting. Why certain people can't be civilised I don't know - kind of kills their point of view.

[iforum]

Quite simple colonel(a military man perhaps) you keep on about using zooms in the streets this is a form of "rabbiting on" a bit like your on going feud with Bill

 

Zoom photography and cctv cameras have a lot in common both are somewhat impersonal in results

 

I have no dramas about rabbiting on I do it we all get into it at some stage, another term for it is a monologue Shakespeare was a great exponent of it

[bill]

I've left him to it. There's no point in wasting my breath.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[colonel]

Quite simple colonel(a military man perhaps) you keep on about using zooms in the streets this is a form of "rabbiting on" a bit like your on going feud with Bill

 

Zoom photography and cctv cameras have a lot in common both are somewhat impersonal in results

 

I have no dramas about rabbiting on I do it we all get into it at some stage, another term for it is a monologue Shakespeare was a great exponent of it

 

You couldnt be more wrong.

A zoom is a series of primes in one.

It's interesting that you lump the top wedding photographers and many other professionals with their 24-70mms f2.8s and 70-200mms as no better then cctv. (Virtually all real cctv is fixed FL FYI, unlike Hollywood).

What a ridiculous comparison and highly insulting.

 

Also, I enjoy all forms of photography. I certainly never said that I either specialise or concentrate on "street photography".

[colonel]

I've left him to it. There's no point in wasting my breath.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

No, yout arguments were found out as largely emotional, and found you can't bully everyone with your "attack dog" style.

[bill]

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Love it

 

I am reminded of the old saying about wrestling pigs.

 

I shall leave you "chained to your certitude"

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[iforum]

As far as the zoom goes I am only referring to the results that you are chasing plus all the long distance stuff on your site, (yes I do look at links)

 

Wedding photographers actually talk to their subjects which is very different to the people you take photos of out in the streets that you know nothing about due to your drive by shooting from a distance style.

 

ps the above is rabbiting or a monologue:cool: Whatever you post in response will be rabbiting as well as there will be no response ahh that is a monologue

[colonel]

As far as the zoom goes I am only referring to the results that you are chasing plus all the long distance stuff on your site, (yes I do look at links)

 

Wedding photographers actually talk to their subjects which is very different to the people you take photos of out in the streets that you know nothing about due to your drive by shooting from a distance style.

 

ps the above is rabbiting or a monologue:cool: Whatever you post in response will be rabbiting as well as there will be no response ahh that is a monologue

 

I didn't realise this would be a critic of my style, as I never claimed to be more then a happy amateur, and is way off topic. Also, I would define nothing I shoot in any "style", as I don't follow a pattern. So criticsing against what you might define as "street" doesn't interest me.

 

For the record, most of my pictures are at 35mm or slightly less at 50mm

I take pictures that interest me sometimes of people in scenes which give some context to the scene/landscape, e.g. scale, colour, type of people who work/live there, etc. I like these pictures, so do virtually all the people that I show them to.

I didn't realise I had broken a photographer law here, which is a fantasy one as looking at "real streetphotographers" photos I would say that in most the people they are targetting are oblivious to their presence.

 

However it you went beyond the first page you would see plenty of people that I have obviously talked to, so I do both.

 

I'd love to see a Wedding photographer that talks to all his/her subjects, I tend to see them only talk when they are doing a couple or group shot

 

and I am not sure what "talking" has to do with zooms

 

Practicallty, I don't think the fact that a habitual RF user is limited to primes only, should blinker them to the wonderful opprtunities of having multiple primes in a single lens.

 

Lastly I didn't centre on the zoom being the main reason I bought the XV. It was a key reason in multiple, so I wouldn't make that a centre piece. I think the package is great.

[colonel]

Love it

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

Exactly, proves my point, thats what I suspected

[dkCambridgeshire]

I have to admit that for the following photographic styles Leica's offering works quite adequately

 

*colonel rabbits on about using a zoom I guess that is his way of getting up there and personal

 

*dunk champions the sneaky and voyeur style

 

So do you, or does everyone else on this forum, ask everyone's permission before you take their photographs?

 

In Norfolk they would say, " Yew talk a lowd o' squit bo' !"

 

In public places, it matters little how photographs are taken. And in case you had not noticed, we are all photographed constantly and clandestinely in most cities by surveillance and security cameras.

 

dunk

[iforum]

Dunk one thing I never do is play the sneaky game that you advocated . I bet you guys would be too scared to use the table and zoom technique with a couple of males dealing in a number or two.

One day dunk that sneaky way will get you in a heap of trouble as you seem to have no ethics

In public places, it matters little how photographs are taken

[dkCambridgeshire]

Dunk one thing I never do is play the sneaky game that you advocated . I bet you guys would be too scared to use the table and zoom technique with a couple of males dealing in a number or two.

One day dunk that sneaky way will get you in a heap of trouble as you seem to have no ethics

 

I doubt that I'd want to take photographs of 'a couple of males dealing in a number or two' ... whatever that means. And 'scared' does not come onto the equation. The situation in which my friend took the photographs was one of witnessing some 'box office' facial and hand /body language expressions communicated by a couple of enthusiastically gesticulating/chatting ladies ... as only two ladies can.

 

If I attend eg a function I thoroughly enjoy taking candid photographs without asking people's permission. They seldom complain but if they do I stop. I've recently had a two page spread of my photos published in a magazine ... all candid photographs ... with cheeky comments added by the editor. All taken with a Leica zoom lens - all taken by me 'standing up' and stalking the subjects. None of the subjects complained - on the contrary they have all seen the magazine article and probably had a good chuckle about the pics.

 

Perhaps your 'ethics' would prevent you attempting such 'sneaky photos'

 

dunk

[Carduelis]

Returning to the opening post:

 

Okay, perhaps this was a hand grenade lobbed into the room (something I am guilty of myself, I guess). But, let's be a bit objective about this (excuse the summary) - why are the people here underwhelmed?

 

Well, let's start with the forum members. They are mostly aficionados of slightly flawed, old fashioned looking manual focus, aperture priority only cameras; they have a fixation with legacy lenses and image quality; and they fuss over things like the sound of the shutter. This is an exacting group.

 

Leica raised the hopes of members that this would be a mini-M. It isn't, so members were disappointed.

 

The camera is underwhelming on paper.

 

 

I think you are correct about the way you have described some forum members who seem more entrenched in manual focus and fixed focal length M lenses and the best attainable image quality. It also comes across to me as that should be the norm on which to judge Leica equipment. However, I believe that people should not lose sight of the useful zoom range and autofocus offered by the X Vario which is certainly advantageous in situations where speed is of the essence where in a split second you can quickly change focal length for convenience of composition and use autofocus to nail the shot. You simply cannot do this with Leica M cameras unless you happen to own a MATE and are well practised in rangefinder focusing or the new focusing options on the new M.

 

The lens despite its slowness seems to me to be virtually on a par with certain M series lenses which really is important to me. I am in a good position to judge this on the basis of image comparisons with my Ricoh GXR (with similar cropped sensor) and the M lenses I have. I say virtually on a par because I have not been able to view the RAW files coming out of the X Vario yet because of oldish software and operating system issues.

 

I am willing to accept lens quality at the expense of slowness particularly in keeping the size of this lens down. I am sure this was Leica 's stance as they have a reputation to keep regarding the quality of their lenses. I agree that they could have marketed the camera better than they did.

[AlanG]

Let's say hypothetically that the M3 was introduced with a zoom viewfinder mated to a small 18mm-90mm f1 zoom lens that was better than any of the current primes. Would people still want primes in this range and would they be knocking the use of zooms now? It seems to me that when I shoot a photograph it is at one focal length. It does not matter if I got to that point by installing a different lens or by turning a ring. A zoom is simply faster, more convenient, and gives a more precise selection. Sometimes this is very important. And you can quickly move from a wide to a tight shot of the same subject and back again if you want.

[Ecaton]

I think you are correct about the way you have described some forum members who seem more entrenched in manual focus and fixed focal length M lenses and the best attainable image quality. It also comes across to me as that should be the norm on which to judge Leica equipment. However, I believe that people should not lose sight of the useful zoom range and autofocus offered by the X Vario which is certainly advantageous in situations where speed is of the essence where in a split second you can quickly change focal length for convenience of composition and use autofocus to nail the shot. You simply cannot do this with Leica M cameras unless you happen to own a MATE and are well practised in rangefinder focusing or the new focusing options on the new M.

 

The lens despite its slowness seems to me to be virtually on a par with certain M series lenses which really is important to me. I am in a good position to judge this on the basis of image comparisons with my Ricoh GXR (with similar cropped sensor) and the M lenses I have. I say virtually on a par because I have not been able to view the RAW files coming out of the X Vario yet because of oldish software and operating system issues.

 

I am willing to accept lens quality at the expense of slowness particularly in keeping the size of this lens down. I am sure this was Leica 's stance as they have a reputation to keep regarding the quality of their lenses. I agree that they could have marketed the camera better than they did.

 

This is what others do in this day and age, constant f1.8 18-35mm zooms:

Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM review - Summary - Lenstip.com

Granted, its bulkier than the one glued to the XV, but it`s a few country miles faster as well. Pushing boundaries is what Leica should re-learn. Now it`s Sony or Sigma or....... One statement from the pre-review: "Now it seems we have to revise our text once more. Sigma shows that their zoom lenses can break records and set new standards as much as (or perhaps even better than) the best “primes”. In order not to be groundless let’s check the performance of the Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM in the frame centre ..."

[dkCambridgeshire]

This is what others do in this day and age, constant f1.8 18-35mm zooms:

Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM review - Summary - Lenstip.com

Granted, its bulkier than the one glued to the XV, but it`s a few country miles faster as well. Pushing boundaries is what Leica should re-learn. Now it`s Sony or Sigma or....... One statement from the pre-review: "Now it seems we have to revise our text once more. Sigma shows that their zoom lenses can break records and set new standards as much as (or perhaps even better than) the best “primes”. In order not to be groundless let’s check the performance of the Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM in the frame centre ..."

 

You are comparing a grapefruit with a pineapple.

 

The Sigma lens has only a 2x zoom range and is a wide angle to standard / normal focal length. By virtue of its limited zoom range it is faster ... but it's a very limited zoom range. If Sigma had made a longer zoom range of the same aperture the lens would be very large.

 

The X Vario lens has wide angle to tele range and is probably a more complex lens design.

 

And previous test reports for Sigma lenses suggest that their QA has not been so brilliant especially with their wide angle zooms. They're OK if you get a good 'un ... but there have been reports of professional photographers trying several of the same model of zoom lens before they found a satisfactory example.

 

dunk

[Carduelis]

This is what others do in this day and age, constant f1.8 18-35mm zooms:

Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM review - Summary - Lenstip.com

Granted, its bulkier than the one glued to the XV, but it`s a few country miles faster as well. Pushing boundaries is what Leica should re-learn. Now it`s Sony or Sigma or....... One statement from the pre-review: "Now it seems we have to revise our text once more. Sigma shows that their zoom lenses can break records and set new standards as much as (or perhaps even better than) the best “primes”. In order not to be groundless let’s check the performance of the Sigma A 18-35 mm f/1.8 DC HSM in the frame centre ..."

 

Thanks for bringing that Sigma lens to my attention Ecaton, I was not aware of it. From what I have briefly read it can suit a 1.5x cropped sensor and is equivalent to 27-52 mm f1.8. I note it has a filter size of 72 mm compared to 43mm for the X Vario and weighs about the same as an X Vario with integrated lens. Perhaps Leica should have been able to create a faster zoom lens for the X Vario whilst keeping with the current size and weight parameters of the camera.

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[Ecaton]

Thanks for bringing that Sigma lens to my attention Ecaton, I was not aware of it. From what I have briefly read it can suit a 1.5x cropped sensor and is equivalent to 27-52 mm f1.8. I note it has a filter size of 72 mm compared to 43mm for the X Vario and weighs about the same as an X Vario with integrated lens. Perhaps Leica should have been able to create a faster zoom lens for the X Vario whilst keeping with the current size and weight parameters of the camera.

 

The point I`m trying to make is how other companies are pushing boundaries and innovate as compared to Leica, which recently seems to put more focus and resources behind brand and product positioning and marketing (XV, D-Lux 6 G Star). So bulk, size and zoom reach aside, Sigma (yes, the same Sigma which manufactured rather uninspiring glass in the past) shows what is possible.

[dkCambridgeshire]

The point I`m trying to make is how other companies are pushing boundaries and innovate as compared to Leica, which recently seems to put more focus and resources behind brand and product positioning and marketing (XV, D-Lux 6 G Star). So bulk, size and zoom reach aside, Sigma (yes, the same Sigma which manufactured rather uninspiring glass in the past) shows what is possible.

 

 

So ... Leica designing and manufacturing eg the 50/0.95 Noctilux was not innovative and did not push any boundaries.

 

Think again ... and read up on their whole product range ... including the S2.

 

dunk