With friends like this, who needs enemies?

[Guest badbob]

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You're comparing a $2850 camera (body plus lens) which has what is apparently a high quality lens (higher quality than anything Nikon makes that sells for $2850, camera plus body), to other Leica cameras where a body plus lens is many times more expensive, and what is that supposed to prove?

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Bob - can you point to my post trying to prove anything?

[colonel]

How do you know I haven't; and what makes you think I am a good enough photographer to know the difference; and what possible difference would it make?

 

My point is singular - you made the comment that this is the first zoom that Leica has made since the R lenses - it isn't. I posted:

 

Can you compare the end result images take with an XV, an M with an R zoom and an S zoom? Sure you can - go for it, but it will be pointless. Different sensor sizes and completely different lenses. If Sean Reid makes that comparison, I feel even more comfortable about letting my subscription lapse.

 

You are right that I made a loose comment that the image taking capabilities of the M, R & S lenses is in a different league to the XV. To be honest, I feel no need to prove that comment (based on looking at the images taken by far better photographers than me).

 

This does not need to spoil your enjoyment.

 

Cheers

John

 

I am still having difficulty understanding your point.

you basic point seems to be that the XV has lens quality far below other Leica lenses.

this is clearly untrue and I don't believe you have used the XV at all.

 

Yes, I forgot about the S vario but frankly it is a different league altogether.

 

You then say that comparing photos on different cameras is meaningless. It seems like you have lost the point of what a camera is actually there for.

 

I am sorry that the detailed work and immense knowledgeof Sean you dismiss in a second, obviously you have far more experience testing cameras and are far closer to Leica's R&D dept. then him

 

I have had an M9 and can comment and can agree with Sean from first hand experience. For sure an M9 and a good prime at base ISO is better, but the XV's lens holds up well.

 

Seriously, no face will be lost if you go with the evident .

[IkarusJohn]

Face?

 

Ah, Harold. I appreciate that you love your new toy, and it is not my intention to spoil your pleasure.

 

All the best.

John

[colonel]

Face?

 

Ah, Harold. I appreciate that you love your new toy, and it is not my intention to spoil your pleasure.

 

All the best.

John

 

I apologise if my last post sounded argumentative.

 

I am just a bit bored of people rubbishing the XV without every having seen or used it.

Not assuming of course that you are in this category.

And I believe this has happened with all other Leica releases so no change I guess

[bill]

It is not "rubbishing" openly to discuss the shortcomings of the XV. It does not, for example, have a built in viewfinder - objective fact, not subjective opinion. The clipon viewfinder available is a) last generation and more expensive than the alternatives. Fact. I could go on.

 

Not everybody buys every camera to try it out. It is not necessary. I don't need to step in dogshit to know it smells.

 

By the way, I took your advice at the weekend and picked up a "Digital Leica" - a mint boxed Digilux 2. Now that is how it should be done...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[colonel]

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It is not "rubbishing" openly to discuss the shortcomings of the XV. It does not, for example, have a built in viewfinder - objective fact, not subjective opinion. The clipon viewfinder available is a) last generation and more expensive than the alternatives. Fact. I could go on.

 

Not everybody buys every camera to try it out. It is not necessary. I don't need to step in dogshit to know it smells.

 

By the way, I took your advice at the weekend and picked up a "Digital Leica" - a mint boxed Digilux 2. Now that is how it should be done...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

True, but issues regarding lens quality and picture quality do require actual usage or a dependable source, rather then speculation.

 

Enjoy your new camera. I believe also, with a few tweaks, the X-Vario is how it should be done.

[dkCambridgeshire]

It is not "rubbishing" openly to discuss the shortcomings of the XV. It does not, for example, have a built in viewfinder - objective fact, not subjective opinion. The clipon viewfinder available is a) last generation and more expensive than the alternatives. Fact. I could go on.

 

Not everybody buys every camera to try it out. It is not necessary. I don't need to step in dogshit to know it smells.

 

By the way, I took your advice at the weekend and picked up a "Digital Leica" - a mint boxed Digilux 2. Now that is how it should be done...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

 

Some people including myself have purchased the X Vario because they recognise its virtues and its potential usefulness as a superb photographic tool.

 

For me, it's a practical means of having, in effect, a range of Leica lenses in a small package which will cope with just about any lighting situation. And it's a pretty good close-up camera too when Elpro achromats are added to the lens.

 

Dog poo it ain't.

 

dunk

[IkarusJohn]

I apologise if my last post sounded argumentative.

 

I am just a bit bored of people rubbishing the XV without every having seen or used it.

Not assuming of course that you are in this category.

And I believe this has happened with all other Leica releases so no change I guess

 

Actually, Harold, I have used the camera.

[AlanG]

Some people including myself have purchased the X Vario because they recognise its virtues and its potential usefulness as a superb photographic tool.

 

For me, it's a practical means of having, in effect, a range of Leica lenses in a small package which will cope with just about any lighting situation. And it's a pretty good close-up camera too when Elpro achromats are added to the lens.

 

Dog poo it ain't.

 

dunk

 

That makes complete sense but what is mostly being discussed is how many people will form this same conclusion and buy one after making a cost/benefit comparison. And we don't have an answer to this. If this is not a person's primary camera it may seem very expensive for the intended role.

[dkCambridgeshire]

That makes complete sense but what is mostly being discussed is how many people will form this same conclusion and buy one after making a cost/benefit comparison. And we don't have an answer to this. If this is not a person's primary camera it may seem very expensive for the intended role.

 

Not everybody goes through the procedure of preparing a cost benefit comparison and worrying about a camera's 'intended role' - if they did Leica would not sell as many cameras.

 

The X Vario can be as simple a camera (autoⁿ ) or as creative a camera (manually configured/tweaked including semi-auto) as the user desires - and it can produce quality results however it is configured.

 

Some say " ... it's not the camera - it's the photographer behind it who produces the image." However, with the X Vario (and the X1 and X2), by using autoⁿ the photographer only has to compose the image in the finder or on the monitor and press the shutter.

 

I know successful exhibition photographers using X1 cameras who do just that (using autoⁿ) with resultant high 'hit rates'. They know how to use manual settings too but they can't be bothered - because their X1 and X2 cameras produce the goods using autoⁿ settings.

 

I also know novice photographers with Leica X1 cameras (including those with X1 cameras bought for them) who know nothing about manual or semi-auto camera settings but who are thrilled with their autoⁿ images ... and who also take a pride in the fact that they use Leica ... knowing that it is, for them, a bit of an indulgence which they enjoy 'posing with' and showing off to their friends ... together with the resultant images.

 

I know serious Leica enthusiasts who have bought X1 cameras for their wives and then been so impressed by the results that they have bought one for themselves.

 

The X1 and X2 'market' is diverse - the cameras appeal to a broader cross section of photographers than those who will only ever use eg Leica rangefinders. But some Leica rangefinder users have also 'seen the light' and have bought X series cameras- despite all the negative and dismissive comments posted on forums.

 

The X Vario will appeal to those who already have the X1 and X2 - maybe not all of them - but enough of them to justify Leica designing and manufacturing the camera. And it will also appeal to new users too who require something a bit special ... and who are not swayed against the camera by those who consider it the great pretender/imposter in the Leica stable.

 

The negativity will probably continue ... especially as some die hard Leica users will never admit just how good the X series cameras really are. They will continue to turn their noses up at the X series - but the more enlightened Leica users who encompass the X series' virtues and produce satisfying images with them will have the last laugh

 

dunk

[colonel]

The negativity will probably continue ... especially as some die hard Leica users will never admit just how good the X series cameras really are. They will continue to turn their noses up at the X series - but the more enlightened Leica users who encompass the X series' virtues and produce satisfying images with them will have the last laugh

 

dunk

 

agree

 

There is also always a tension between those for whom Leica means minimalism, rangefinder and manual focus and anything fundamentally digital is evil.

Sometimes they dress up their arguments with spurious specs. to justify general hostility.

 

The X series is a fine camera series that stands up to the best of the competition. Leica perhaps made a mistake naming the XV a Mini-M but not such a terrible one IMHO.

 

Leica will continue to diversify its product set, putting its quality and inimitable style on different products, and good luck to it.

[Guest badbob]

Some people including myself have purchased the X Vario because they recognise its virtues and its potential usefulness as a superb photographic tool. For me, it's a practical means of having, in effect, a range of Leica lenses in a small package which will cope with just about any lighting situation. And it's a pretty good close-up camera too when Elpro achromats are added to the lens. Dog poo it ain't.

dunk

 

I wish I could say I was looking for a particular type of camera and the XV fell into my lap as a perfect answer to my quest. Or that I read the announcements and did some research and realized it was a better answer to my needs than other options. It does fit with what I've purchased in the past for the most part, but the unknown for me was how many opportunities I would realize with the XV, and how many I would miss.

 

The negative comments from many different directions did underscore the XV's limitations that would directly affect my success rate, but I really couldn't be sure that it would be satisfactory in the long term, so the only way I'd know is to try it. What I know now is that there are some places and times where I don't even pull the XV out of the bag, knowing it's not the best bet in those situations. But I also know that if I'm willing to leave the other camera behind, I can adapt the XV to some of those situations, and probably not miss anything that's extremely important.

 

Knowing the XV's limitations from using it now, if someone were asking me whether they should consider it when performance might be an issue, I'd just say no and save a lot of pointless discussion. The only cases where I could say "Yes, it's fair to at least consider the XV and evaluate its limitations" is when someone indicates to me their attraction to the style and the brand, and willingness to make concessions on performance.

[IkarusJohn]

That argument applies to all cameras. My M cameras go furthest for me in meeting all my needs, from 21mm to 90mm, fast and slow. I just need to focus and change lenses, and as a system camera, it is bigger - not so much when compared to a dSLR. So, while I'm sure the XV is good, it doesn't fill my needs and I have the potential to have better results with what I have.

 

Where the M does not fill my needs is in macro and long reach (up to, say 500), where a dSLR with a good zoom with image stabilisation will most likely work for me as an addition to my M system.

 

A mini-M, with a full frame sensor and able to take my M lenses would have been nice as an addition to what I have. The XV would not be - for that size, I'd rather take an M and get better performance.

 

Cheers

John

[CalArts 99]

The negativity will probably continue ... especially as some die hard Leica users will never admit just how good the X series cameras really are. They will continue to turn their noses up at the X series - but the more enlightened Leica users who encompass the X series' virtues and produce satisfying images with them will have the last laugh

 

But some Leica rangefinder users have also 'seen the light' and have bought X series cameras- despite all the negative and dismissive comments posted on forums.

 

 

I'm one of those diehards.

 

I use film Ms (M4 and M6) almost exclusively (I just happen to still use a lot of film, and especially 4x5; but that's just me.) I never could warm up to the M9 for some reason and sold it.

 

I once tried out the X2. Had it for a few days (a demo from my vendor) and worked with the files and made several ink jet prints and also a Lightjet RA-4 print (prints are the final destination for me.)

 

I'm not sure about having the last laugh but I did end up buying the X2. In fact my M9 sale was part of a trade for the X2. The camera works for me and for what I want it to do. But I'm not going to try very hard to convince anybody who doesn't like the X concept otherwise. They have to try it out for themselves and decide if it has any value for them.

 

 

There is also always a tension between those for whom Leica means minimalism, rangefinder and manual focus and anything fundamentally digital is evil. Sometimes they dress up their arguments with spurious specs. to justify general hostility.

 

I'm not sure why people need to attack (or defend) a camera. It either works for you or it doesn't. Talking about the pros and cons is certainly helpful for somebody who might be considering a particular camera and can't get their hands on a demo. But only if one can keep their ego at bay and not be biased because they decided to spend their own money on it. Unfortunately many 'reviews' often become just a personal confirmation to the buyer that they made the right choice. And the phenomenon of identifying oneself with a certain commodity and defending it so adamantly is kind of wacky, imho.

[colonel]

if someone were asking me whether they should consider it when performance might be an issue, I'd just say no and save a lot of pointless discussion. .

 

Just on this point I am not sure on the performance limitations. Many people use zoom lenses with the same or similar aperture range to the XV and the ISO performance of the XV is pretty good.

Of course zoom vs prime is range vs light. Also zoom lenses with a lot of light become very large for APS-C or bigger sensor cameras.

IMHO f2.8 (aka X2, GR, Coolpix A, etc.) is close enough to f3.5 to make the XV a much more versatile then a fixed lens without really giving anything up (also note the GR and Coolpix A are 28mm equiv.).

f2 (e.g. X100S) is a worthwhile difference to consider fixed as this is a whole 1.5 stops faster.

I have found that having 28-70mm available on tap is extremely useful. I admit to not having used a zoom for many years, due to the general limitation on sharp pictures (except for very large Nikon and Canon zooms). The XV was a route to obtain the sharp pictures I am used to in a small package.

Interestingly, to get the most out of the zoom, I treat it like a series of primes. i.e. each piece of the range I am using one shoot at a time, to understand its handling, distortions and DOF.

 

 

I'm not sure why people need to attack (or defend) a camera. It either works for you or it doesn't. Talking about the pros and cons is certainly helpful for somebody who might be considering a particular camera and can't get their hands on a demo. But only if one can keep their ego at bay and not be biased because they decided to spend their own money on it. Unfortunately many 'reviews' often become just a personal confirmation to the buyer that they made the right choice. And the phenomenon of identifying oneself with a certain commodity and defending it so adamantly is kind of wacky, imho.

 

I agree. You have both the interminably hostile and the folk self-justifying their purchase.

In the case of the XV the hostility on this forum seems to for once have outweighed dpreview (Leica forum), where I have found people surprising interested and friendly.

[dkCambridgeshire]

The following will illustrate a situation where the X1 'scored' over a rangefinder.

 

A friend and his wife went to a restaurant and chose a table in the courtyard for their meal. On the adjacent table two ladies were deeply engrossed in a conversation and were also noticeably gesticulating as they explained 'whatever' to each other. The ladies were so engrossed with their chatting that they were oblivious to my friend and his wife.

 

My friend, sensing a photo opportunity, surreptitiously placed his X1 on his table and roughly framed the two ladies in the monitor ... using his standard pre-set auto everything camera settings. I should add that he has long mastered his X1 and is well used to surreptitious snapping in such situations.

 

Whilst conversing to his wife and with clandestine dexterity he took a whole series of photographs of the two ladies ... with the camera still perched beside him on the edge of the table and aimed towards the gesticulating chatterboxes.

 

The resultant photographs are a wonderfully satisfying record of the 'goings on'. The photographs could probably be bettered by an X Vario by virtue of its variable focal length settings ... but it's highly unlikely (in those circumstances) that they could have been bettered or equalled by a manual focus rangefinder camera.

 

My friend also uses a D-Lux 6 for candid and street photography using his stealth methodology - but it is not capable of matching the X1's image quality for the required exhibition and competition prints.

 

Since mastering the X1 (he's been using one for over two years) my friend has sold his Bessa rangefinder and Leica M lenses ... and his R6 and R lenses. He has now seen the potential of the X Vario ( he's impressed with mine) and I would not be surprised if he decides to buy one. In fact on my last visit he was 'weighing up' how he might finance the potential purchase - after being amazed by the DNG files viewed at 'actual pixels' produced with mine.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[Guest badbob]

Next time there's a new 'controversial' camera, maybe each critic could say whether their judgement is based on pro or semi-pro use for certain jobs, or whether it's based purely on personal/hobby use, or something in between. I couldn't imagine at the beginning of this that users were judging the XV on the basis of its performance for professional use, and if they were basing on that, why they weren't prepared to compensate for any performance issues, such as making sure to have camera supports handy when shutter speeds are very slow.

[iforum]

Still yet to see anyone successfully use the camera as a impromptu "street shooting" machine. I tried it a couple of times dusk/night situations and dark contrasty allies etc the camera's shortcomings were very evident. As for kids and dogs on the move , forget it

Despite this I do see how many will enjoy using this camera and meets most needs. It even makes a visual impact on a credit card printout:D

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[vcs700s]

Still yet to see anyone successfully use the camera as a impromptu "street shooting" machine. I tried it a couple of times dusk/night situations and dark contrasty allies etc the camera's shortcomings were very evident. As for kids and dogs on the move , forget it

Despite this I do see how many will enjoy using this camera and meets most needs. It even makes a visual impact on a credit card printout:D

 

I own the X Vario and will be using it for street photography etc. I don't see any limitations as I can always zone focus as I do with my other Leicas.

 

This is a great camera which is extremely versatile. I am very pleased and frankly don't understand all the negativity especially from people who haven't even touched one. I find it to be high quality and worth every penny I paid for it.