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[phancj]

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My X1 is serving me great for vacation, and I have D800 with all the lenses I want/need.

 

Went to the cam store today, realized the M240 is S$10800 (before discount) the M9 was S$13000+ at launch few years back.

 

Last I heard X vario is S$4000+.

 

Personally I find the X vario not a good value at all, and the zoom range insufficient for me to be excited by it, ditto the speed of lens or rather the lack of it.

 

Thinking about getting M240 with a 35 cron/lux.

 

The dealer was telling me that now leica is directly involved in sales here and camera/lenses are cheaper now.

 

CJ

[AlanG]

I suspect the target market is not camera enthusiasts, Ming Thein has a good grasp of the target market....

 

That's an interesting thing to say about a $3000 camera from Leica.

[colonel]

That's an interesting thing to say about a $3000 camera from Leica.

 

I recently revised my view. see other thread

Although when it comes to luxury items $3,000 is not necessary large

[AlanG]

Although when it comes to luxury items $3,000 is not necessary large

 

I agree that $3000 is not that much money these days. But I never thought of a camera as a luxury item either.

[Paul Reading]

In retrospect, after the release of the X Vario, and reviews by Steve Huff, LuLa, Ming Thein, and several hands on reports, one has to reflect on the role of this forum, and the mob function of hordes of arm-chair CEOs and self-imposed "experts" who doomed the camera without having touched or tried it.

 

How much harm has this forum made for this model, that seems to really be a gem?

 

Overpriced? Yes, like D-lux 3,4,5,6 etc. But it seems to really deliver on the most important factor: Picture quality. I am starting to want one myself...

 

But if I were Leica, I would look elsewhere for advice than this forum, which in my opinion has shown a total lack of judgement, despite several sensible voices.

 

 

Really we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

I think that major disappointment comes from the fact that it does not have a EVF like the Fuji EX-1 or the NEX cameras. Personally I am disappointed that the zoom does not start a 24mm (A deal breaker for me but probably not for other people).

 

Lastly some people wanted a full from having seen what Sony have done. I don't support that move because it would make the camera much bigger and much more expensive and ultimately it would be counter to its raison d'être.

 

My analysis is that Leica is a small company and this was a quick and relatively cheap modification to an existing product (In R&D terms). The engineering required to me the expectations on this forum would mean engineering a new product from scratch.

 

Roll on the X3.

[colonel]

Really we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

I think that major disappointment comes from the fact that it does not have a EVF like the Fuji EX-1 or the NEX cameras. Personally I am disappointed that the zoom does not start a 24mm (A deal breaker for me but probably not for other people).

 

Lastly some people wanted a full from having seen what Sony have done. I don't support that move because it would make the camera much bigger and much more expensive and ultimately it would be counter to its raison d'être.

 

My analysis is that Leica is a small company and this was a quick and relatively cheap modification to an existing product (In R&D terms). The engineering required to me the expectations on this forum would mean engineering a new product from scratch.

 

Roll on the X3.

 

I don't think so.

If you hold the X2 and the x-vario in you hand you will see it is quite different.

Sure there has been some reuse, e,g. The sensor, but even the sensor board is different as it has a new CPU.

Also the lens is the first in house zoom that Leica has made since the R series.

 

An APS-C interchangeable lens camera would be at least £2,000 for the body.

An FF camera would be at least £4,000.

 

Leica might make one, but I think the idea of a FF camera from Leica much cheaper then the M240 is wishful thinking.

[IkarusJohn]

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I don't think so.

Also the lens is the first in house zoom that Leica has made since the R series..

 

The Vario-Elmar-S 30-90?

 

Leica has huge and varied lens expertise. I wouldn't make a big deal out of the XV lens. Sure, the IQ sounds good, but the M, R & S lenses are another league.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[colonel]

. I wouldn't make a big deal out of the XV lens. Sure, the IQ sounds good, but the M, R & S lenses are another league.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

I would.

"a different league ?" ???????- idle speculation

in fact Reid and other say it's as good as primes

[Guest badbob]

The Vario-Elmar-S 30-90?

 

The 'S' camera with lens is nearly 30 thousand dollars U.S. If you're stretching that far to show how the 3 thousand dollar XV is not exceptional, then I think the comparison speaks for itself. 'R' cameras are Minoltas BTW.

[bill]

The 'S' camera with lens is nearly 30 thousand dollars U.S. If you're stretching that far to show how the 3 thousand dollar XV is not exceptional, then I think the comparison speaks for itself. 'R' cameras are Minoltas BTW.

 

The Leicaflexes and the R8/R9 were in-house developments. The R3, R4, R5, R6 and R7 had Minolta innards.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[dkCambridgeshire]

The Vario-Elmar-S 30-90?

 

Leica has huge and varied lens expertise. I wouldn't make a big deal out of the XV lens. Sure, the IQ sounds good, but the M, R & S lenses are another league.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

Do you really know how much design expertise went into the X Vario's lens? There's a damn sight more work involved in making a zoom lens that is usable at every aperture and which renders images sharp across the frame throughout the zoom range than in making a prime. Have you ever used a 28-90mm R lens? I would not be surprised if there's some of that lens' pedigree in the X Vario's lens. We'll probably hear a lot more about the X Vario's lens design if and when an 'in depth' review is published in eg Leica Fotografie International magazine.

 

I am very impressed by the X Vario's lens - both its solid build quality and its performance.

 

dunk

[Guest badbob]

The Leicaflexes and the R8/R9 were in-house developments. The R3, R4, R5, R6 and R7 had Minolta innards.

 

Thanks for the tip, but I confess I know almost nothing about the 'R' series outside of the R3 Safari I traded for and subsequently traded off. Are you certain that there are 'R' series zoom lenses actually made by Leica? I'd like to find out more about those. I got the impression from the other poster that he didn't have an 'R' series zoom example where the lens was made by Leica. I seem to remember with my M4-2 that the body was made in Portugal and the lens made in Canada, both ostensibly in Leica facilities.

[IkarusJohn]

I would.

"a different league ?" ???????- idle speculation

in fact Reid and other say it's as good as primes

 

Thanked this by mistake.

 

I don't think for a minute that the XV zoom is in the same league as the R or S lenses. You're seriously saying the lens is as good as the M primes? Based on what? A comparison of different cameras and different sensors, or do they just look nice?

 

Sounds more like a Steve Huff "crazy comparison".

 

Look, I'm sure the XV gives fantastic results for what it is, but lets not get carried away.

 

By the way, my comment was to point out that your comment above about this being the only in house zoom is not correct, as Leica designs and makes the S zoom, and they have a huge history of designing and making zooms which do match primes in performance.

 

And, no Dunk, I'm not comparing the XV with an S, R or M lens for that matter.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[dkCambridgeshire]

Thanks for the tip, but I confess I know almost nothing about the 'R' series outside of the R3 Safari I traded for and subsequently traded off. Are you certain that there are 'R' series zoom lenses actually made by Leica? I'd like to find out more about those. I got the impression from the other poster that he didn't have an 'R' series zoom example where the lens was made by Leica. I seem to remember with my M4-2 that the body was made in Portugal and the lens made in Canada, both ostensibly in Leica facilities.

 

 

You might consider obtaining The Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition - revised and edited by Brian Bower and Nobby Clark. Brian and Nobby are both acknowledged Leica hardware experts - Brian has written several books about the Leica systems all illustrated with his own excellent photos - and Nobby worked for Leica UK in Milton Keynes for many years prior to Leica Store Mayfair taking over UK ops. & customer services. The revised Pocket Book is for many Leica users, a pocket bible and history of nearly all Leitz and Leica cameras and lenses produced since 1913 including the early prototypes. Leitz Canada in Midland Ontario under the direction of Walter Mandler designed some of the finest L39, M and R optics Walter Mandler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Leica Solms have designed and manufactured 'in house' some of the world's finest zoom lenses including the 28-90mm R, 70-180mm R, 80-200mm R, and 105-280mm R. Their history and performance characteristics are documented in the Pocket Book - together with performance data for all the other Leica lenses manufactured. Most of Leitz/Leica's early zoom lenses were made by Angenieux, Minolta and even Sigma and some of those optics have less than stellar performances - but then again most of the far east manufacturers produced more than a few 'lemon' zooms too under their own names - especially during the 70s.

 

Best wishes

 

dunk

[colonel]

Thanked this by mistake.

 

I don't think for a minute that the XV zoom is in the same league as the R or S lenses. You're seriously saying the lens is as good as the M primes? Based on what? A comparison of different cameras and different sensors, or do they just look nice?

 

Sounds more like a Steve Huff "crazy comparison".

 

Look, I'm sure the XV gives fantastic results for what it is, but lets not get carried away.

 

By the way, my comment was to point out that your comment above about this being the only in house zoom is not correct, as Leica designs and makes the S zoom, and they have a huge history of designing and making zooms which do match primes in performance.

 

And, no Dunk, I'm not comparing the XV with an S, R or M lens for that matter.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

Well read some reviews and think again.

it's certainly not as good as S lenses but doesn't leave anything regarding R lenses

[Guest badbob]

Most of Leitz/Leica's early zoom lenses were made by Angenieux, Minolta and even Sigma and some of those optics have less than stellar performances - dunk

 

I tend to take Leica 'M's and 'X's for granted and steer clear of the others, except for a D-Lux6 I got recently. What began my interest in the XV lens performance was the images I was getting with the Nikon Coolpix A - night shots mostly. I noticed a lot of light fall-off and distortion in the corners, at least compared to what I got with the X1 earlier and XV later. Reviews didn't say much negative about the Nikon A, but I did catch a mention of vignetting in one review at least, and since the 'A' has gone off to a new owner now, I'm even more curious how the XV would compare to the 'A' at any focal length.

[IkarusJohn]

You might consider obtaining The Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition - revised and edited by Brian Bower and Nobby Clark.

 

...

 

Leica Solms have designed and manufactured 'in house' some of the world's finest zoom lenses including the 28-90mm R, 70-180mm R, 80-200mm R, and 105-280mm R.

 

I second this recommendation - it's a very useful book.

 

Their description of the Vario-Apo-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/70-180mm, made from 1995-2009, makes an interesting read:

 

This zoom lens is a seminal Solms design, that redefined the state of the art zoom lens construction. Thirteen lenses in twelve groups and 12 different glass types were needed to give the lens its superb performance. After using this lens, no one can ever bellieve the claim that lenses with fixed focal length cannot be surpassed by zoom lenses. To prove this assertion: the image quality of the 100mm position at full aperture is as good as that of the Apo-Macro-Elmarit-R at the same aperture.

 

Now, there is a lot of hyperbole about how good the zoom lens is on the XV. Putting a few facts in the way, it is slow, and it is on a cropped sensor. I have total faith in Leica producing a lens which performs well in that context. Here's what Ming Thein syas bout the lens:

 

It’s a very good but not outstanding optic.

 

Making comparisons to M primes and any of the R or S lenses strikes me as being a bit of a stretch. Don't let that spoil your enjoyment of your XV, but let's try to stay in the real world when it comes to full frame and MF comparisons.

 

And to reinforce the point, this is not the first or only zoom lens designed and made by Leica - hence my references to the R & S zooms. I wouldn't compare them for a minute.

 

Cheers

John

[dkCambridgeshire]

I second this recommendation - it's a very useful book.

 

Their description of the Vario-Apo-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/70-180mm, made from 1995-2009, makes an interesting read:

 

 

 

Now, there is a lot of hyperbole about how good the zoom lens is on the XV. Putting a few facts in the way, it is slow, and it is on a cropped sensor. I have total faith in Leica producing a lens which performs well in that context. Here's what Ming Thein syas bout the lens:

 

 

 

Making comparisons to M primes and any of the R or S lenses strikes me as being a bit of a stretch. Don't let that spoil your enjoyment of your XV, but let's try to stay in the real world when it comes to full frame and MF comparisons.

 

And to reinforce the point, this is not the first or only zoom lens designed and made by Leica - hence my references to the R & S zooms. I wouldn't compare them for a minute.

 

Cheers

John

 

IIRC Ming Thein has yet to use the lens in clear atmosphere; the KL atmosphere is full of smog caused by forest fires and he makes reference to same.

 

dunk

[colonel]

Now, there is a lot of hyperbole about how good the zoom lens is on the XV. Putting a few facts in the way, it is slow, and it is on a cropped sensor. I have total faith in Leica producing a lens which performs well in that context.

 

I am having difficulty making out your point.

First you say that making a cropped slow lens is easy, but later, and repeatedly, disparage it by saying its just "good".

 

At 28mm it is f3.5, which is 0.75 slower then the Nikon Coolpix A and Ricoh GR @ f2.8, but it has the rest of the range as well. It is also 0.75 slower then the X2 but has a stop better ISO performance, so quids in.

 

In terms of Ming, I like his reviews, but you have to take it as opinion in some parts. He hates Fuji and the Sony RX1 and says they are not very good. However he raves about the OM-D. Personally I would put the RX1, X100S and X-E1 far ahead of the OM-D in IQ. I was disappointed with it, noticing noise even in base ISO. And the sensor and lenses are not terribly sharp, even with the Panny primes.

 

I won't reveal Sean Reid's review as you need to pay, but he says its an "... excellent optic .... Leica did not want to compromise on optical quality so kept the range and f stops within the bounds of excellent ..... real photographers will be happy .... in terms of optical performance, this Leica lens is the "Real Deal" .... ", etc.

 

Why don't you shoot one before making an opinion ?

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Hallo,

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[IkarusJohn]

Why don't you shoot one before making an opinion ?

 

How do you know I haven't; and what makes you think I am a good enough photographer to know the difference; and what possible difference would it make?

 

My point is singular - you made the comment that this is the first zoom that Leica has made since the R lenses - it isn't. I posted:

 

The Vario-Elmar-S 30-90?

 

Leica has huge and varied lens expertise. I wouldn't make a big deal out of the XV lens. Sure, the IQ sounds good, but the M, R & S lenses are another league.

 

So, it isn't the first zoom they've both designed and made since the R lenses, and it is probably very good. But it's daft to compare this slow zoom on a cropped sensor with the larger lenses designed for full frame sensors. Can this be objectively proven? No, we both know that.

 

Can you compare the end result images take with an XV, an M with an R zoom and an S zoom? Sure you can - go for it, but it will be pointless. Different sensor sizes and completely different lenses. If Sean Reid makes that comparison, I feel even more comfortable about letting my subscription lapse.

 

You are right that I made a loose comment that the image taking capabilities of the M, R & S lenses is in a different league to the XV. To be honest, I feel no need to prove that comment (based on looking at the images taken by far better photographers than me).

 

This does not need to spoil your enjoyment.

 

Cheers

John