With friends like this, who needs enemies?

[Ecaton]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

In retrospect, after the release of the X Vario, and reviews by Steve Huff, LuLa, Ming Thein, and several hands on reports, one has to reflect on the role of this forum, and the mob function of hordes of arm-chair CEOs and self-imposed "experts" who doomed the camera without having touched or tried it.

 

How much harm has this forum made for this model, that seems to really be a gem?

 

Overpriced? Yes, like D-lux 3,4,5,6 etc. But it seems to really deliver on the most important factor: Picture quality. I am starting to want one myself...

 

But if I were Leica, I would look elsewhere for advice than this forum, which in my opinion has shown a total lack of judgement, despite several sensible voices.

 

I`m neither a fan nor friend of Leica, but a critical customer who spent a ton of money to buy their lenses, small sensor compacts, X1 and RFs in the last 10 years. In the recent past Leica used to develop and launch digital cameras which were innovative and really exciting, including M8, M9, X1. It seems that its strategy changed and brand positioning and marketing are more in focus than product development. And yes, I dare to have and express an opinion about this as have others. As far as the XV is concerned, it`s a premium priced mediocre product, setting no new standards and being subpar in many respects (and yes, I have tried one and it does produce decent digital files, as do so many aps-c sensor cameras these days).

[Guest badbob]

I`m neither a fan nor friend of Leica, but a critical customer who spent a ton of money to buy their lenses, small sensor compacts, X1 and RFs in the last 10 years. In the recent past Leica used to develop and launch digital cameras which were innovative and really exciting, including M8, M9, X1. It seems that its strategy changed and brand positioning and marketing are more in focus than product development. And yes, I dare to have and express an opinion about this as have others. As far as the XV is concerned, it`s a premium priced mediocre product, setting no new standards and being subpar in many respects (and yes, I have tried one and it does produce decent digital files, as do so many aps-c sensor cameras these days).

 

I wonder if you're being too hasty or short-sighted. The 9/9/09 releases were innovative - all three - unusual for any company let alone Leica being so small. Expecting them to equal or exceed 9/9/09 is unfair I think. Besides, I gave good reasons for buying the X Vario, and I think those reasons have stood criticism well enough. So far anyway.

[IkarusJohn]

I had an X1, which I think is very similar to the X2. If the XV were an X1 or X2 with zoom I wouldn't have touched it. The X1/X2 fits into those nifty little carrycases just like the D-Lux cameras - the 18709 for the X1/X2 and the 18727 for the D-Lux6. The XV is huge and requires a photographer's case or bag, which doesn't work in a lot of places. The D-Lux cameras and X1/X2 can also be carried in a photographer's case - the everready cases or whatever, but that not only bulks them up quite a bit it pretty much prohibits their being carried into certain venues. It's not a nitpick, it's a night and day difference.

 

Nah, it's a nitpick.

 

Same sensor, both called X, both fixed lens, one has a zoom; Oh, and it's called X-Vario, or did I say that already?

[IkarusJohn]

Leica has a history of being brave with the original Barnack camera, the M3 and the S2, M9 and X1 to name a few. There just doesn't seem to be anything brave about this camera.

 

It's a tough world, and innovation pays. Fuji's X100 was a brave move, as was the Sony RX-1. Both have inspired follow on products. So Leica offers a follow on from the X2? Meh!

 

I don't wish Leica ill. I wish them succes, and I wish they'd be a bit braver with their products. Their forays into SLR and the M5 were ages ago - the consistent thing about those products is that they were yesterday's technology when they were released.

 

That's the reason for the disappointment.

 

I'm sure the XV owners will be happy; but that isn't the point. I'm concerned there won't be as many of them as Leica wants. My M9-P is for sale in the Classifieds and my D800E and new lens are on (back)order - the dealer says it must be the same factory as producing the APO Summicron 50!

[Guest badbob]

Nah, it's a nitpick.

 

I know people who can't tell the difference between night and day, but then again, they may just enjoy being contrary for the sake of it.

[IkarusJohn]

I know people who can't tell the difference between night and day, but then again, they may just enjoy being contrary for the sake of it.

 

Selective quoting - nice.

 

It's just turning night here

[Guest badbob]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm sure the XV owners will be happy; but that isn't the point. I'm concerned there won't be as many of them as Leica wants. My M9-P is for sale in the Classifieds and my D800E and new lens are on (back)order - the dealer says it must be the same factory as producing the APO Summicron 50!

 

I see a genuine concern that Leica isn't big enough with deep enough resources to afford luxuries like the XV. But consider the big investor guy. Maybe he thinks that Leica's reputation of being a pure luxury product (from some points of view) is worth something, and not to be diminished or discarded by lofty ideas about new breakthroughs all the time. (just speculating, and based in part on my own reasons to purchase)

[colonel]

Leica has a history of being brave with the original Barnack camera, the M3 and the S2, M9 and X1 to name a few. There just doesn't seem to be anything brave about this camera.

 

It's a tough world, and innovation pays. Fuji's X100 was a brave move, as was the Sony RX-1. Both have inspired follow on products. So Leica offers a follow on from the X2? Meh!

 

I don't wish Leica ill. I wish them succes, and I wish they'd be a bit braver with their products. Their forays into SLR and the M5 were ages ago - the consistent thing about those products is that they were yesterday's technology when they were released.

 

That's the reason for the disappointment.

 

I'm sure the XV owners will be happy; but that isn't the point. I'm concerned there won't be as many of them as Leica wants. My M9-P is for sale in the Classifieds and my D800E and new lens are on (back)order - the dealer says it must be the same factory as producing the APO Summicron 50!

 

You should really hold the camera and try it before making these statements.

 

It's far better made then the X2.

The picture quality is excellent.

And it's a zoom, the X100S, GR etc are all fixed lens.

 

The XV lens is a real gem. It's on par with the best primes.

 

The XV is all about a compact jewellery like camera with a zoom range and the best colours and acuity. Nothing like it exists.

 

The D800E is a heavy noisy monster. I know it's great, I have used one extensively, but its hardly relevant to a XV discussion.

[dkCambridgeshire]

With that logic, all build in electronics are build in obsolescence, including sensors and lcd screens.....

 

No ... you are comparing apples and lemons. EVFs will improve at a faster rate.

 

dunk

[dkCambridgeshire]

I walked into two camera stores last week which sell Leicas. Guess which make was readily available to be bought. No, not the M240 or MM, it was the brand new XV. The same can be seen when visiting web pages of Leica dealers. The writing is on the wall, it will be a dog, as are the V40 and X2 as far as success in the market place are concerned. And by the way its AF really sucks and the MF implementation is a challenge for the far sighted ones (get your reading glasses ready folks).

 

In your expert opinion

 

dunk

[dkCambridgeshire]

I`m neither a fan nor friend of Leica, but a critical customer who spent a ton of money to buy their lenses, small sensor compacts, X1 and RFs in the last 10 years. In the recent past Leica used to develop and launch digital cameras which were innovative and really exciting, including M8, M9, X1. It seems that its strategy changed and brand positioning and marketing are more in focus than product development. And yes, I dare to have and express an opinion about this as have others. As far as the XV is concerned, it`s a premium priced mediocre product, setting no new standards and being subpar in many respects (and yes, I have tried one and it does produce decent digital files, as do so many aps-c sensor cameras these days).

 

A rather rash, ill considered, untrue, and dogmatc statement.

 

dunk

[Ecaton]

No ... you are comparing apples and lemons. EVFs will improve at a faster rate.

 

dunk

 

Sony`s short innovation cycles on sensors seem to tell something different. Whether EVFs technically could improve at a faster rate is another question...

[Ecaton]

A rather rash, ill considered, untrue, and dogmatc statement.

 

dunk

 

The difference between your style and mine is that I express an opinion about a product, whereas you are nothing but judgmental about someone`s opinion about a digital product. Your style, or better lack thereof speaks volumes.

[CalArts 99]

You're getting closer, but still no cigar. When you say a judgement formed about something that's pretty nebulous. And I think I was clear about 'facts' not needing to be true, merely that they state something that can be referenced. If a person says "I hate the X Vario" or "I hate Leica", you might permit that as opinion, but it still doesn't say anything. Not only doesn't it contain even the slightest bit of information, it actually sucks any existing goodwill out of the forum by being purely negative with no purpose other than to make the members feel bad.

 

What I had italicized (view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge) was directly from the dictionary for the definition of "opinion." And I'm not looking for a cigar.

 

But don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning someone's behavior when they state an opinion and say nothing that can be referenced. I, too, find it useless and irritating. But I simply was responding that this is what people often do. And it happens here. As I said in my very first post: "this is how humans operate in the world." And that was in direct response to your statement of: But "opinions" that have little or no factual content, whether the facts are proven or not, just create fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD), and alienate people."

 

Opinions will always alienate people. Especially those opinions that are devoid of any content. But people do it all the time. It's unfortunate, yes. And that was all I was saying. Certainly you can grasp that.

[colonel]

... I express an opinion about a product,.....

 

but, and I implore you, rather then going on spec. sheets on the internet, go and hold one in your hand and use it, and see the pictures

 

I guarantee you will change your opinion

[Ecaton]

but, and I implore you, rather then going on spec. sheets on the internet, go and hold one in your hand and use it, and see the pictures

 

I guarantee you will change your opinion

 

I actually held and used one last week as I posted it above. See my comments about the AF and MF implementation.

[colonel]

I walked into two camera stores last week which sell Leicas. Guess which make was readily available to be bought. No, not the M240 or MM, it was the brand new XV. The same can be seen when visiting web pages of Leica dealers. The writing is on the wall, it will be a dog, as are the V40 and X2 as far as success in the market place are concerned. And by the way its AF really sucks and the MF implementation is a challenge for the far sighted ones (get your reading glasses ready folks).

 

Thanks for referring me to your previous post.

This sounds very emotional.

The MF is the best implementation in any compact or CSC camera period.

Focus peaking would put it way out digitally, as it already is mechanically.

Just to note, in this space I have used x-Pro1, X-E1, PL2, OM-D, Nex-7, Nex-5, Nex-5N, RX1, X100 and numerous others.

Your comment about "far sighted ones" appears to mean you forget to switch MF assistance on.

 

The AF is very good. Sucks is like you were using a different camera. Its not OM-D, but doesn't leave much to be desired, except for the action sports crowd, however I will be be trying it in this setup exactly soon.

 

We can all agree to differ, but it appears you merely gave the camera a cursory look over in some kind of "its not interchangeable or FF" rage.

 

Shops are well stocked due to planning by Leica. I have spoken to a number of dealers in the UK. There were delivered between 10-20 on launch, amazing for Leica. After a few weeks most are down to 2-3 with another batch coming next week.

I think thats pretty good for Leica. Of course many of these sales were pent up demand, perhaps the BAU sales will now be slower but Leica has done well with the X2 and X1 and as the X-Vario seems to be selling better perhaps it is already delivering a good profit.

Goodness knows how many the Hong Kong Leica shop has sold ....

[IkarusJohn]

You should really hold the camera and try it before making these statements.

 

I have.

 

I'm not comparing the XV with a D800.

[Guest badbob]

What I had italicized (view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge) was directly from the dictionary for the definition of "opinion." And I'm not looking for a cigar. But don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning someone's behavior when they state an opinion and say nothing that can be referenced. I, too, find it useless and irritating. But I simply was responding that this is what people often do. And it happens here. As I said in my very first post: "this is how humans operate in the world." And that was in direct response to your statement of: But "opinions" that have little or no factual content, whether the facts are proven or not, just create fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD), and alienate people." Opinions will always alienate people. Especially those opinions that are devoid of any content. But people do it all the time. It's unfortunate, yes. And that was all I was saying. Certainly you can grasp that.

 

In a previous post I mentioned the courtroom concept of being argumentative, but there's another legal term that helps here too. It's called good faith. The things you say are acceptable because "everyone does it anyway" I call bad faith. And someone who exhibits bad faith and unwillingness to contribute anything other than being argumentative - they can justifiably be removed from the conversation. It's not difficult to grasp that, if you are taking the time to grasp something.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[bill]

So, just to be clear on this concept, this:

 

...

The MF is the best implementation in any compact or CSC camera period. ...

 

...is a subjective opinion, yes? With no basis in fact formed from testing every compact or CSC camera?

 

Just want to be sure.

 

As to sales, what "pent up demand" could there really have been - generated by the abysmally ill-judged advertising campaign? I can accept - as demonstrable fact - that a number have been sold, but the true measure will be how many are returned in the coming weeks, or find their way on to eBay.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

 

Sent from another Galaxy