ELDIA for Ilford Reversal Processing

[M9reno]

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I would like to use a VORSA to make some stereo transparencies, which I can then view on VOTRA.

 

The simplest route, of course, may be to shoot some slide film and send it away for processing, and I may yet opt for that. The results in colour stereo would be nice, but the stereo, not the colour, is the decisive criterion for me on this occasion.

 

Another way occurs to me: to shoot B&W negative film, and then use reversal processing to achieve B&W transparencies. Ilford has published their recommended method on their website:

 

ILFORD PHOTO - Reversal Processing

 

A further idea (hence the title of this thread): I gather one could use ELDIA to copy a series of selected stereo negatives (shot on different rolls) onto a single negative roll, which is then reversed processed. Ortho film would be the obvious way to go using ELDIA, but as far as I can tell it is not available in the UK, or in convenient or affordable quantities anywhere else. Using ELDIA has the advantage of allowing me to mix stereo and non-stereo shots on the original roll, transferring only the stereo shots I really want onto the reverse-processed roll. The problem is that I have ELDIA sitting on a shelf, as t don't feel confident using it to make negative to negative copies.

 

So my questions. I welcome answers to either one, or both.

 

1. Has anyone out there tried Ilford reversal processing? Too hard to bother with? Hopefully not, so any tips/suggestions?

2. Can anyone provide tips/advice (dare I say instructions?) on how to use the ELDIA to make negative to negative copies, ideally on the kind of Ilford film I would then be reverse processing (FP4 Plus or PAN F Plus)?

 

Many thanks in advance for your help!

[gsgary]

Ive got 100' of Kodalith Ortho , but i don't know anything about sterio photography there are a few at our club that do it

[M9reno]

Thanks gsgary. Where does one get this stuff nowadays? Is it expired? Presumably nothing equivalent is made any longer.

[giordano]

I did quite a lot of b&w reversal processing long long ago. It was good fun, hardly more difficult than ordinary developing. I used FP3 or FP4, whichever was around at the time, with Paterson kits than also existed back then and were simpler to make up than the Ilford recommendations but I'm sure wouldn't have produced better results. A couple of things to watch out for:

 

• Expose like slide film or digital: there's little latitude and you need to avoid burnt-out highlights.
  
• Second exposure: if you're using a Paterson or similar tank with translucent plastic spirals, you can give the second exposure without having to remove and reload the wet film: remove the spiral from the spindle and shine the light in from both ends.
  
• If you're projecting the images, make sure the projector's cooling fan and/or dichroic heat filters are in good order. Some of my denser b&w trannies buckled from the heat before I discovered that the Rollei projector had been sold with a filter missing, while no colour slides did. I guess this was because that the silver in the b&w emulsion was absorbing more IR light than the dyes in the colour emulsion.
  

Re the ELDIA: if you shoot b&w negs and then print these onto film, you don't need to reversal-process any more than one reverse-processes ordinary b&w prints. Ortho film isn't essential, it's simply convenient because you can work under an ordinary safelight.

[M9reno]

Re the ELDIA: if you shoot b&w negs and then print these onto film, you don't need to reversal-process any more than one reverse-processes ordinary b&w prints. Ortho film isn't essential, it's simply convenient because you can work under an ordinary safelight.

 

Thank you very much, John. Doubtless me being slow here, but I'm not sure I understand this last point. When you copy b&w negs onto a fresh neg roll in ELDIA you get a positive copy... I stupidly hadn't clued into that. But is it a transparency? Is it, e.g., projectable?

 

Presumably exposure of the copy neg in the ELDIA is best done using an enlarger light. If so, do you use the same f/ stop and time setting at which the original negative would print well on paper? Or is it just trial and error?

 

Anyway, sorry for all these native questions and thanks for your help!

[gsgary]

Thanks gsgary. Where does one get this stuff nowadays? Is it expired? Presumably nothing equivalent is made any longer.

 

 

Yes expired in 1985 but it only cost me £0.50 for 100 feet

this shot is with it

 

[giordano]

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Thank you very much, John. Doubtless me being slow here, but I'm not sure I understand this last point. When you copy b&w negs onto a fresh neg roll in ELDIA you get a positive copy... I stupidly hadn't clued into that. But is it a transparency? Is it, e.g., projectable?

 

Presumably exposure of the copy neg in the ELDIA is best done using an enlarger light. If so, do you use the same f/ stop and time setting at which the original negative would print well on paper? Or is it just trial and error?

 

Anyway, sorry for all these native questions and thanks for your help!

 

Yes, it's projectable (clear film with dark silver image), with the same proviso about avoiding over-hot projectors. Trial and error for the exposure: even slow films are much faster than printing paper. Or rather trial and error for the combination of exposure and development: you'll usually want the positives to have a full range of tones and to get these from whatever is the range of densities in your negatives.

[gsgary]

Would this work

Foma FOMAPAN R100 B&W Double Super 8 Reversal Film 411802

[M9reno]

Wow, thanks! That's unexpected - though I wonder if it's possible to buy some of Fomapan R100 in the UK. From a quick look using Google, it seems like its development is similar in many respects to the reverse processing suggested by Ilford. However, I feel somewhat intimidated by the chemical experimentation involved.

 

In any case, if using ELDIA is one way of achieving transparencies (on negative film), then I suppose it would be easiest to try that first...

 

Thanks again!

[gsgary]

Wow, thanks! That's unexpected - though I wonder if it's possible to buy some of Fomapan R100 in the UK. From a quick look using Google, it seems like its development is similar in many respects to the reverse processing suggested by Ilford. However, I feel somewhat intimidated by the chemical experimentation involved.

 

In any case, if using ELDIA is one way of achieving transparencies (on negative film), then I suppose it would be easiest to try that first...

 

Thanks again!

 

Yes, and i have bought lots of Foma film from these Foma B+W Reversal Film Dev Kit and 5 x Fomapan R Films | eBay

[M9reno]

John, do you have any examples of transparencies made from negatives that you could show? As long as it's easy for you to do it would be very helpful to see the end result. Thanks in any case.

[giordano]

John, do you have any examples of transparencies made from negatives that you could show? As long as it's easy for you to do it would be very helpful to see the end result. Thanks in any case.

 

I only ever made trannies by reversal processing, never from negatives, and those I kept were lost in an intercontinental move long ago. The area around the perforations and between frames is black like colour slides, but it's the same black as the very densest highlights on a negative. The image is an ordinary b&w positive image. If properly exposed and processed, the brightest highlights are virtually clear film, and the darkest shadows are deep black, just like a good colour slide. I recall the FP3 or FP4 developed with the Paterson kit as being a neutral grey tone, but this could be changed by using some of the common print toning chemistries (I never bothered).

 

If you want to get a taste of b&w transparencies I strongly suggest you go for reversal processing using the Foma kit or the Ilford instructions: this minimises the number of variables and totally avoids some of the problems you'll have with the ELDIA (e.g. dust on the negative, film curl spoiling the contact between the negative and the film in the ELDIA, and either finding non-panchromatic film or dealing with the above in total darkness). Then if you get hooked try neg/pos.

 

Where the neg/pos process for making slides comes into is own is if

 

1. You want to make more than one slide from the same image, or prints and slides from the same image. With neg/pos that's as easy as making multiple prints, while with reversal you either have to do it in the camera (making as many exposures as you'll ever need copies), or else copy the original positive image (which can be done but you'll lose a lot of image quality unless you take extraordinary precautions. In the old days there were special films for duplicating colour slides, with spectral response and contrast fine-tuned to minimise the loss in quality).
   
2. You want to be able to crop the original and enlarge the cropped area to fill the slide. With neg/pos this is simple using an Illumitran or similar and good macro lens.
   
3. You want more control over density and contrast than the reversal process affords (which is very little because the positive image is made from the silver that's left in the film after the negative image has been developed and bleached away).
   

[M9reno]

Thank you, John. Your advice makes a lot of sense. In fact, before reading your post, I took out the ELDIA this morning to see how I would go about using it in total darkness. It wouldn't be simple. For one, there would be the problem of aligning the original negs with the device's exposure window. The only way I can think of doing that blind is to cut each neg frame. And with so much manipulation, the risk of dust doubtless becomes ever greater. The process would be long and frustrating. I wonder: is there really no more ortho film to be had in the UK? A sad state.

 

Anyway, I might see if I can try the Ilford recipe first, in case one might easily avoid the expense of the kit. The sulphuric acid or equivalent is the main factor giving me pause. On the other hand, the price of the Foma kit is not unreasonable, considering it includes five rolls of film. It would be good to hear from anyone who has compared the experience and results of using Ilford vs. Foma.

 

Many thanks again!